Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lee Crump on August 15, 2015, 11:31:44 PM
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I am rebuilding the front brakes and I find that there are 2 bore sizes on the same cylinder. 1 1/8" to the front and 1" to the rear. Does this make sense?
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Both Kaiser and Frazer used the stepped design wheel cylinders on all of the full size cars, as well as the Darrin. The rear cylinders were a more conventional one inch bore. As pointed out in another post, new cylinders are available, and kits to rebuild existing units can be had as well.
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I just rebuilt the wheel cylinders on my 54 Kaiser using kits from Rock Auto and they work fine. Only cost $15.80 shipped to my address and yes they are step bored.
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What are the casting numbers for both the front and rear cylinders?
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nice pic but that doesn't help me
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ok
keep going
now we have a casting number
you have almost answered my question...
front or rear?
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Again Jake, you have not answered the question asked, so why are you driven to respond with a senseless answer?
And that question was rhetorical!! I.E., don't answer.
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It's about time I help out, rather than sucking information from other K-F people. I have many old aftermarket parts catalogs, going back into the 1940s. By no means do I have a complete library, but it's quite extensive.
Anyway here is the information about the wheel cylinder part numbers, both OEM and Wagner brand. The Wagner info comes from a 1957 edition. It seems that the wheel cylinders with a Hydra-matic transmission are different, so I have only listed the cylinders with a manual transmission. This info covers 1947-1955. The Wagner (and other brands?) casting numbers cannot always be relied upon, because as I looked up the Wagner part number, matching it to a casting number, I found anywhere from 1 to 3 other part numbers, which fall under the same casting number. 1. LF - OEM=200198; Wagner=FD 8523; cast. #FD4508 2. RF - OEM=200197; Wagner=FD8524; cast. # FD4509 3. REAR - (both sides are the same) OEM=200199; Wagner=FD8504; cast. #FD8377. By the way, are the interchange guides, with a blue cover, sold on ebay, of any value in finding out which other cars use K-F parts?
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FINALLY
THANKS
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By the way, are the interchange guides, with a blue cover, sold on ebay, of any value in finding out which other cars use K-F parts?
I bought one of those reproduction Hollander parts interchange books (not cheap) hoping for some Willys Aero interchange info, pretty much none. I'm traveling now but will check when I get home if any Kaiser interchanges are listed and post what I see.
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I should have clarified that I am checking out the much thinner interchange guides NOT the Hollander version. The guides I'm wondering about have many small parts listed such as ignition and wiper switches, etc., that Hollander does not usually deal with. Hydro-electric is the vendor that I've been looking at on ebay.
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I should have clarified that I am checking out the much thinner interchange guides NOT the Hollander version. The guides I'm wondering about have many small parts listed such as ignition and wiper switches, etc., that Hollander does not usually deal with. Hydro-electric is the vendor that I've been looking at on ebay.
Yes, much different parts. Thanks for the clarification.
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The Hollander book shows Kaiser brakes etc. They show the wheel cylinders as 47-55 K,F and Darrin, but not interchanging with any other makes. Some of the venders were selling cylinders from a Willys or something but you had to drill holes. Some fronts didn't have the stepbore. Hollander also shows the 51-55 Kaiser master cyl interchanges with 49-51 Ford car. Some books also show interchange with early 60's Econoline master cyl. Hubs and drums don't show any valid interchanges with other makes.There were some odd drum swaps that involved changing hubs etc.
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A little story about casting numbers... The casting numbers are cast in! When the raw castings are machined, they could end up with different bore dimensions, different mounting holes, and different hose sizes.
I can't find my Lockheed-Wagner Brake Library catalog right now to verify the casting number, but it seems to me 39-48 Ford passenger car wheel cylinders have the same casting numbers as 47-55 KF-cars. The Ford cylinder is 1 1/8 x 1 just like a KF and the mounting holes are the same. The difference is the pipe threads on the Ford cylinder are larger than the KF. You can buy a flexible hose with a different fitting on the cylinder end or you can buy a brass fitting to reconcile the different size.
Hi-performance heads from the 60s are another example of misleading casting numbers. There are several examples where true hi-per heads were machined at the factory from regular castings.
I have 3 period Hollander Manuals and I can't say they are as helpful as expected. Replacement part catalogs, especially the L-W Brake Library catalog have been more useful to me.
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rialto, the 51-55 Kaiser master cylinder is indeed the same as the 49-53 Ford. Yes, the catalogs indicate it the same MC was used on Ford Vans, but (I owned an Econoline) I think it was actually a step van or what Chevy calls a P Van (for peanut?). The design of the MC pretty much says it has to used in a vehicle with floor pedals. That is, under the floor boards.
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Guys,
I got from multiple threads on this forum, part numbers and suppliers for replacement shoes, wheel cylinder rebuild kits or replacement wheel cylinders assembly.
Would you have also p/n's and supplier for spring kits and drums ?
Thanks.
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Thanks for the information, I didn't know the difference between the auto and standard in reference to the brakes.
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So, I just bought a '53 Manhattan and blew the passenger front wheel cylinder a few days ago. In trying to find information on the brakes, I come across this original post, which is quite helpful. After a few minutes I realize that it was created by the guy who sold the car to the guy I bought it from -- this is my car he's asking about!! I wonder if Lee ever did redo the wheel cylinders or not -- either way, I'm off to NAPA to pick up the rebuild kits any try again. Wish me luck!
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When you put the front brakes on a 1953 do you put the longer brake shoe on the front or back side?
Thanks
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Long shoe on the front, short shoe on the back.
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Sorry, the Primary shoe (Short Lining) always goes in the front. It is the first shoe to contact the drum when applying brakes. The Secondary shoe (Long Lining) is the second shoe to contact the drum and does the majority of the braking, thus the longer lining. They are usually made of different lining material because of the different functions of each. Lining material will also affect the effectiveness of braking. The harder the lining the harder brakes need to be applied and they last longer. That's not a problem for later cars because they mostly come with power brakes.
If you can find organic linings (softer material) that should give good stopping with these older cars.
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Okay, brake shoe replacement for floating type brakes, not self energizing brakes, is the long shoe is the primary shoe. The short shoe is the secondary shoe. Floating brakes use the clips at the shoe sides to hold the shoes in place and allow the shoes to float. Also, the bottoms of the shoes are stationary and do not move. The adjusters are on the sides near the hold down clips. On self energizing brakes, the short shoe is the primary shoe. Self energizing brakes are different because the shoes are held in place by a pin-spring-retainer and the shoes do not float. The adjustment is at the bottom of the shoes and the bottom of the shoes are not stationary. On floating type brakes the primary shoe does the most braking and the shoes do not rotate when the brakes are applied. On self energizing brakes, both shoes share the load and rotate somewhat as the brakes are applied. The service manual for the 1951 Kaiser Frazer page 214, 3rd paragraph down on the left outlines installation. After 1949 all Kaiser, Frazer, and Darrins used the floating type brake. I think the Henry J used the self energizing 9 inch brakes.
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Ok, apologies!!
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left shoes on front ...right ones on rear.
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Someone told me I was wrong and I should have long shoe on back. So I took his advice and they have been dragging ever since. That's why they where dragging. I need to quit listening to non KF people.
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Page 214 in the 51 K-F shop manual says the shoe with the long lining goes in the forward position.
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For me, it’s a pretty easy decision that most of these comments never mention. You install new brakes and components as you see them on the car now. If your brakes worked fine but are needing replaced for normal wear and tear, simply take a lot of photos and/or lay the old out on the ground the same as removed.
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For me, it’s a pretty easy decision that most of these comments never mention. You install new brakes and components as you see them on the car now. If your brakes worked fine but are needing replaced for normal wear and tear, simply take a lot of photos and/or lay the old out on the ground the same as removed.
My method has always been to only do one side at a time, but realized the flaw is that depends on the guy that did the work before. After replacing my rear axle shoes after a full teardown/restoration I posted a pic here and a sharp eyed, and more knowledgeable member pointed out my shoes were reversed. I checked my disassembly photos and that's the way it came apart. I had installed the old shoes in the 70's, following what had been done sometime in the previous 20+ years before I got the car, which means the entire time I drove the car in the 70's the rear shoes were reversed.