Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Willys Forum => Topic started by: MarkH on November 20, 2015, 03:37:45 PM
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I need the paint codes for the interior trim. I have a good selection of color chips from different companies for exterior colors, but only Ditzler has an interior color named, but not shown, Sherwood Gray.
There's 3 interior colors on my car and the parts cars I've disassembled, medium/light gray seat frames, dark gray & silver dash, silver also on window frames.
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What year is your car? ... On the Firewall Data Plate is there a I.P. Code shown??
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My car is a '54 Lark, actually a leftover '53 titled as a '54. The aluminum plate is from it.
The brass plate is from a '52 Ace, different seat covers, door panels & arm rests but the same paint colors on the interior parts.
Same 3 paint colors were also in another '52 Ace parts car, seems to be a pretty common set of colors from what I've seen on other cars too.
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First off, forget the Sherwood Gray stuff. The notation in the Ditzler Advance Bulletin dated 12/4/53 ONLY COVERS STATION WAGON AND TRUCK TYPES, not the Aero models.
Second, it appears that someone over-stamped the critical first line of the body tag (it is at least theoretically possible that it occurred at the factory but I will not sign off on the idea) screwing up the information as to make it unreadable. Can you post a picture of the door post serial number tag on the car, showing the 653 engine/model year info followed by the model number and the actual serial number of the car. While I do not have monthly production counts for Willys products like I do Kaiser-Frazer I do have factory start/stop numbers for car serial numbers.
Third, I can do nothing with engine numbers so they are not needed.
Lastly, Jim's reference to an I.P. (Interior Paint) number applies only to 1952-54 Kaisers and Henry J automobiles.
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This page may be helpful.
http://clubs.hemmings.com/willysaero/
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First off, forget the Sherwood Gray stuff. The notation in the Ditzler Advance Bulletin dated 12/4/53 ONLY COVERS STATION WAGON AND TRUCK TYPES, not the Aero models.
Second, it appears that someone over-stamped the critical first line of the body tag (it is at least theoretically possible that it occurred at the factory but I will not sign off on the idea) screwing up the information as to make it unreadable. Can you post a picture of the door post serial number tag on the car, showing the 653 engine/model year info followed by the model number and the actual serial number of the car. While I do not have monthly production counts for Willys products like I do Kaiser-Frazer I do have factory start/stop numbers for car serial numbers.
Third, I can do nothing with engine numbers so they are not needed.
Lastly, Jim's reference to an I.P. (Interior Paint) number applies only to 1952-54 Kaisers and Henry J automobiles.
You could be right about Sherwood Gray only being a truck or station wagon color.
I do have different Ditzler info than you quote, dated 4-10-52 and titled as new passenger car colors, Sherwood Gray being listed for interior, pictured below. I also see that color listed as paint code #68 on the Survival Count site, and being metallic which would fit.
The top line on my firewall tag wasn't over stamped, it's a triple strike of the same characters and very tough to make out due to being half on white aluminum, half on black paint. I was able to make them out under high magnification a couple years ago but can't remember now, and the tags are with the car at the shop.
The top line is very clear on the brass tag and had identical interior paint so if there's paint info in there, you can help?
I can't give you a 653 number since my car is a '54. I've also attached a photo of the door jamb plate with the serial number.
Any info is appreciated, as you all know it can be hard to come by.
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Couple of things.
#1 - You have an early 1954 Lark, called by the factory a "Standard" or a "Conversion," depending on which documentation you are looking at. Basically a 1953 with 1954 trim hung on it, as you've said. So all codes on the trim tags would pertain to the 1953 model year. I've been calling these cars "early specials" for years since they were introduced in January 1954 before the regular run was introduced in March 1954 as the Deluxes (Lark, Ace and Eagle) and Custom (Eagle only).
#2 - You show two different trim tags:
The first tag (1954 Lark) has the overstrike for the style number that is hard to determine but has no bearing on the paint or trim code (I believe it says 675A 2DR SDN, which has been found in the registry on several 1953 and early 1954 Larks). Paint is "58" or Mediterranean Blue Metallic. Trim is "101" or gray striped cloth.
The second tag (1952 Ace) has the paint code that looks like it could be "60" Hampshire Green Metallic or "80" Raven Black. Trim is "44" or two-toned gray material (used until serial number 652-MA1 16682).
Now, I understand that you are concerned about the interior paint being accurate when you respray. Unfortunately, I cannot find any documentation or paint chips that will tell what colors are painted on the interior metal. Your best bet would be to find an unfaded area of the dash or window sills and computer match the color. Wish I could give you more, Mark.
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Couple of things.
#2 - You show two different trim tags:
The first tag (1954 Lark) has the overstrike for the style number that is hard to determine but has no bearing on the paint or trim code (I believe it says 675A 2DR SDN, which has been found in the registry on several 1953 and early 1954 Larks). Paint is "58" or Mediterranean Blue Metallic. Trim is "101" or gray striped cloth.
The second tag (1952 Ace) has the paint code that looks like it could be "60" Hampshire Green Metallic or "80" Raven Black. Trim is "44" or two-toned gray material (used until serial number 652-MA1 16682).
Now, I understand that you are concerned about the interior paint being accurate when you respray. Unfortunately, I cannot find any documentation or paint chips that will tell what colors are painted on the interior metal. Your best bet would be to find an unfaded area of the dash or window sills and computer match the color. Wish I could give you more, Mark.
Recently re-examined the body tag and you are correct about what's stamped on the first line, and also correct on the "58" body color.
The second tag was from a green car, so that one is a "60"
Lewis Retzer has been doing some research and found a reference to the Sherwood Gray in a Preliminary Parts List book as being the color on the windshield garnish molding. Those moldings are the same color as the silver insets on my dash. There's also mention of Oxford Gray in 3 bottle quantities but no mention of where it went, and I don't think I've seen that name on an exterior color chart. Lew copied those pages and said he mailed both of us copies.
I did see the Sherwood mentioned on the back of another color chip chart as a DUCO color, and the preceding asterisk/star indicates it did not have a match in DULUX..
I don't have much confidence that the DUCO or Ditzler numbers will cross reference to anything since even multiple brands of color charts & numbers for the body color are currently going nowhere.
I think your suggestion about color matching is probably what's going to happen.
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I've had some pretty good luck since the last post, both on exterior and interior paint colors.
I have and have seen several brands of vintage color chip charts and they describe the metallic in the paint in various terms. Metallic, Opalescent, Iridescent and Poly. Poly is the description on Ditzler charts (pittsburg plate glass), currently known as PPG. The Ditzler chart numbers have also been the only useful info to anyone I've spoken to.
Everything the local PPG supplier was coming up with had metal flake that was too bright which I've seen before on vintage cars, and the color was never quite right.
I stumbled across a company called TCP Global who's claim to fame is a huge library of colors, quite a bit of it from vintage records. They said they could match my Ditzler number for Mediteranean Blue Poly and could make a spray out card for $45 to look at. Not having a lot of faith, I ordered it anyway and they absolutely nailed it both in color and sheen. Turns out they knew about the bright metallic issue and still order the grind of metal found in vintage paints.
I could've ordered enamel, lacquer, PPG base/clear, or their house brand Restoration Shop base/clear which is what I ordered. I was working with a really knowledgable guy named Jimmy who thought this was the first Aero project he'd done. He said he remembered the new Aero very well when he was in high school.
After fixing me up on the exterior paint he did a lot of additional searching and found a Ditzler list of Willys interior colors, which on my dash and the 2 parts car dashes I stripped is Gale Gray (dark) and Sherwood Gray (light) as well as several other interior colors. I already have my exterior paint and today my interior colors arrived with a copy of the Ditzler info Jimmy found, as well as his card, attached below.
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Mark, can you get a full page copy of any Aero related stuff that Jimmy has on file? Digital copy is good for me. I'd like copies for the archives/research.
Also, I seem to remember stripping out a gray dashed Aero that had a sticker of some sort under the dash that said "Sherwood Gray". Wish I could remember the details to document it.
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We swapped color chip info and the only thing he mentioned he had that I didn't was the Ditzler interior color sheet attached above.
I don't have any info not already listed on the survival count site and any info not Ditzler seemed pretty much useless to anyone I asked.
Sherwin Williams does still list Mediteranean Blue Metallic in their Rod & Custom line and although it looked very similiar, including mention of the red pigment, they said it's not the same as the '53 version.
The current owner of the old DuPont paint line only carries info for two 50's colors now, both Chevy.
The Ditzler sheet above was mostly blank so I cropped it for a smaller attachment. I am waiting to hear back from Jimmy about engine paint (mentioned in video) and will ask him if there was any additional Aero info on that Interior color sheet.
I recommend watching the video about their color library at the web address on the business card posted above, plus there's additional interesting info on the antique colors link next to the video.
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Most interior paints even into the 70s were lacquer. I was told to cut down on glare. Which would explain the Duco color which was Duponts lacquer.
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TCP didn't have any info on Aero engine paint so I sent them a side valve cover with good paint for color matching, Light Gray. Just got the part and the paint today, they did a really nice job matching the color, and it's on file there now. A quart was $49.96 shipped.
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Great that you have someone up to date on colors :) What color is the oil pan ?
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Great that you have someone up to date on colors :) What color is the oil pan ?
I also sent them a copy of the parts book page with the other engine colors, just in case it could be useful later. All colors was new info for them.
Oil pan is oil & dirt crust colored ::) Scraped through the petrified crust today and it's Light Gray, same as the engine.
It was quite a surprise all over again to see shiny enamel under the crud. This engine must've started leaking oil right off the dealership lot.
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Now all you have to do is find the leak !