Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Kaiser Forum => Topic started by: pjkaiser on December 12, 2015, 02:27:53 PM
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I flushed out and changed the coolant in my 53 Traveler Deluxe today. I noticed bubbles in the coolant after it reached operating temperature. I don't have access to a combustion leak detecter but I would like to know from those of you that have been through this before, what are the most common causes for an exhaust leak into the cooling system for this particular engine?
THe engine runs fine except it does run on the warm side until it is over 85 degrees, then it is at the maximum even with the heater going full blast. It has never overheated for me, yet.
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PJ - I hate to say this, but with the evidence of running hot, to near overheating, my thought would be a head gasket breach. A compression tester is not too expensive and would confirm or shoot down my gut.
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I have one of those, will try it next week, thanks.
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Sorry, but I don't think a compression tester will help. It can be used to tell the condition of the valves and rings. If you have a head
gasket to intake valve leak, you will "burn" antifreeze. If the leak is large enough the tailpipe will have white smoke and the bad
cylinder will have a clean spark plug without soot because of the water in the antifreeze cleaning the plug. If you have your condition,
which is overheating and bubbles in the radiator you probably have a head gasket to exhaust valve leak. When this happens exhaust
gases are pushed into the coolant and it overheats. A pressure tester can be hooked to the radiator and then see if it holds pressure,
but this only tells you that there is a leak or not. It doesn't tell you where the leak is. I think the head needs to come off to see what
has happened.
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I had a old 9n Ford tractor that did the same thing except I was also getting oil in the radiator, it ran for years like that but that's not advisable and it had a cracked block, your problem is probably as everyone said just the headgasket and that's a easy fix on these flat heads. Also keep in mind serious damage can be done if a lot of water gets into the combustion chamber, water will not compress and damage could result, I would say not to run this until the gasket has been checked.
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There is oil residue in the cooling system. Does that mean I might have a cracked block or a crack in the exhaust port???
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You might have a cracked block. What is the color of the crankcase oil? If it looks like milk chocolate, coolant it getting into your oil.
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I checked the oil, all is well!
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Don't think the worst right away, just pull the head and examine the gasket, another unlikely possibility, is that it could have a warped head, you are gonna have to take it apart and have a look, if you aren't sure what you are looking at get a experienced person to help you. I can scout up the tightening sequence of the bolts and the torque requirements when you need them or you may find info on Circle KF.
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I won't be doing anything till after the holidays, thanks for the input.
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If it is a gasket leak, ten to one it is between #3 and #4 cyls .This engine has two exhaust valves side by side concentrating a lot of heat in that spot! You can get quite a discussion on the use of gasket cement on this gasket.
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I am a big fan of Permatex Spray Adhesive on old engines. I think the adhesive compensates for unevenness of the surface
especially the large surface of a head gasket. I paid to have my head gasket replaced and then found coolant in my exhaust
manifold several months later. I then pulled the head myself and put in a new gasket using Permatex and no more leaks. I used
it on the thermostat housing too. Later on I wanted to change the thermostat, so I used a very thin putty knife and slid it
between the head and the housing and it came right off. New gasket glued and new thermostat and all was well.
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K-F service bulletin #314 details the correct procedure for installing a 226 head. If this procedure is not followed the gasket is pretty much guaranteed to leak and eventually blow out.
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Ok, where do I get a copy or be able to read it???
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Here you go...
http://circlekf.com/index_dept.php?sid=10731&dp=service&yr=all&mk=all&cls=all&pub=all&typ=SB&nbr=314&mg=all&modID=none&srcID=1001&action=source_detail
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Ok, I have the procedure down. I just can't read the Head Bolt Numbers for Tightening sequence. Does somebody have a copy that can blow up that particular area???
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The copy at the posted link will blow up larger that 100% actual if you click on it. At least, it did for me.
Or, if you are using Internet Explorer, go to 'view' in the upper left corner, and you can zoom in.
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Ok, I did that, thanks. It is still difficult to read most of the numbers.
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Here is a jpeg of the head bolt numbers. Does this help?
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Thank you, that will work just fine.
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Ok, I am ready to order an overhaul gasket set. I want to pull the intake and exhaust to paint the exhaust and to rebuild the carb, so I thought the overhaul gasket set would work better. I might even adjust the valves. I will then repaint the engine while it is apart. I have the special paint already.
I found two company's selling the same Felt Pro Kit, FS7191S8. Egge Machine has it for $125.38 and Rock Auto LLC has the same kit for $66.29. Anyone know why the big difference????
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Rock Auto buys closeouts and over stock from various manufacturers and suppliers and they buy in volume. So, since they pay less, they sell for less.
I've purchased quite a bit from Rock Auto and only once did I encounter a defective product - which they immediately made right.
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I will second the comments on Rock Auto. Have ordered a lot of parts from them, and have had only one issue and it was quickly taken care of. Significant savings over even the discount chain parts stores.
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If there is nothing wrong with your intake or exhaust gaskets you might not want to dismantle them. The exhaust manifolds are prone to cracking. Good ones are hard to find. Taking it apart may cause a crack.
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I want to paint the manifold with cast iron heat paint, so it looks like new instead of all rusty. I will do as much of the exhaust pipe as I can reach. It has been taken apart for the restoration 15 - 20 years ago, so I think it should be good.
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I just found a service bulletin issued by Kaiser Willys concerning all L6-226 engines dated July 25, 1956. It's KW no. 320 and in part it reads that the cylinder head torque recommended is now 35-45 foot pounds. It also shows that the new recommended sequence had changed. The picture shows No. 1 through no. 5 remained the same but no. 6 and no. 7 in sequence went to the right of bolts 1, 2, and 3. The rest of the tightening kept going first to the left of the center, then to the right, and back to the left. Instead of torqueing down all the left side and then the right side the manual changed to working from the center out evenly on both sides. I can not post a picture (printer/scanner is down) but check for KW service bulletin #320 dated July 25 1956. The most important part being the upping of the recommended torque. Also we asked an engine rebuilder friend about the change and he felt it had to do with the former head gaskets generally were copper faced and now they are not.
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I went to the CircleK and couldn't find it. If you have it would you put a picture of a copy here?
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Here's the copy of KW service bulletin #320 dated July 1956.
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I would use new head bolts and torque twice. After the engine has been warmed up and allowed to cool re-torque bolts again. That
should due it. Tractor supply type stores sell the correct bolts by the pound. I got all 33 bolts that were the correct grade for about
$12.
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Thanks for all that information. Great help!!!!
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On the New Head Bolts, Could you give me the part number and brand, this would give me a starting point for getting new ones. Southern California has very few Tractor type supply stores, so I will have to go on-line for the new head bolts.
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Measure and old bolt, if I remember correctly they were 3". Get the same steel grading (grade #5 ?) as the old ones. Ordering on
the internet be careful of shipping costs because 33 bolts will be heavy. The ones I bought were anodized for corrosion and had a
slight gold color. They wasn't a part number because they were sold by the pound at the store.
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I found a old bolt that might be the head bolt. It measured 3" 0n the the bolt shaft not measuring the the bolt head. The bolt
grading was posted on this forum before. That is important as the wrong grade could snap or stretch.
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Ok, I removed the head. Lots and lots of carbon between cylinders 3 & 4. I have included a picture of that center head bolt with all that carbon. Many of the cooling system holes were plugged up, some with carbon, others with sludge.
Now I need the torque for the intake and exhaust manifold nuts.
Much cleaning and painting ahead before it goes back together, again.
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Start at the center and work your way out toward ends, 30-35 ft lbs recommended in 51 shop manual
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To determine the proper bolt grade, check the head. If there are no radial lines then it's a grade 2 bolt. Three radial lines denote a grade 5 bolt and six lines mean it's a grade 8 bolt. Both my 50K and 54K used grade 8 bolts.
Have you located the source of your leak? If the head gasket was not compromised, then there may be a crack in a cylinder wall. My 54 had the same problem and it took a bright light, some cleaning of the block deck, and a sharp eye to see the crack that formed in the cylinder wall.
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The head gasket was blackened on both sides right at that spot and there was soot plugging that coolant hole and all over that head bolt. I will look for a crack in the block around that spot. Thanks for that bit of direction.
Also, since all the bolts go into the cooling system, is there something special that goes on the bolts to keep them from seeping coolant or is that not a problem?
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A tap and die set is relatively inexpensive and you could then clean the treads in the head to get a more truer torque reading on
the bolts. Carbon/corrosion can cause torque readings to be incorrect.
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Coat the threads with Permatex # 2. Worked well 50 Years a go.Still does.I coat all engine bolts except the manifold with it .Cleaning the threads with a die and tap is almost a necessity to get the proper torque values.Some of these bolts/studs go all the way through the block into the water jacket and can get really futzed up.
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Ok, I found a Tractor Supply Center close to me and went there this morning. They do indeed, sell bolts by the pound. I got enough to do the head and picked up a new Neg Battery Cable lead. I also picked up some other bolts, washers and nuts that I needed, all by the pound. Thanks Boatingbill!!!
I had to cut the long center manifold bolt to remove the both the intake and exhaust manifolds. Everything came off with no cracks until I turned it over. These are heat cracks that do not go through, at least till it's heated up. There is no indication that those cracks do go through and leak. I will get them welded up before putting it back on. THere are a lot of bolts needed to be drilled, re-tapped and replaced before I am ready to put it back together again. I will also surface both manifolds, after putting them back together again, to make sure I get a good seal.
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I separated the intake from the exhaust manifold and this is what I found. Going to see if I can get these cracks welded. I have a friend that restored a Tucker and broke a tab off of one of the manifolds and this company he is sending me to did the work.
More later
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I would call Rudy Phillips and get a good used manifold for a fraction of what it will cost to weld the cracked one. That may have cracked because of one of the previous owners drove the car for a long time with an exhaust valve leaking which caused excessive heat in the manifold.
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I had a similar situation with my manifold. I talked with a restorer and he said to weld it properly you have
to take it to a shop that has a oven to bring the cast iron temp up slowly and then after welding it goes
back to the oven to cool down slowly. Even then there is a 50/50 chance a crack my develop next to the
weld. Mine had been welded before and later cracked. That convinced me to look for a good used one
which I found. It is getting harder and harder to find them do to rather poor quality of the cast iron in
that era.
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I have a dilema. I need to know what Model engine my 1953 Kaiser Deluxe has for the proper valve adjustment specs.
I have included both the Continental Spec sheet and the Kaiser Manual Spec sheet. Very different Specs and I only want to do this once, while both manifolds are off!!!
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Use the KF shop manual as your source.
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I may be too late into this particular discussion but as a protocol, I agree with the revised torque sequence, almost all head gaskets will seat better working inside out. A few recommendations:
-Clean all surfaces
-Run straightedge on head (have machine shop grind straight if warped) yippee incrementally higher compression.
-use new bolts if possible
-chase all threads and blow clear
-coat bolt threads, shaft and head mating surfaces with anti seize lubricant
-perform the torque sequence in stages, first torquing to 20# then 30# finally pulling to final spec'd torque using smooth pulling motion avoiding jerks.
Looks like you have done more disassembly so lapping the valves would be a great prophylactic procedure and pretty simple at this point, I haven't bought valve grinding compound in a few years and have a now antique hand cranked oscillating grinding tool. Pretty simple and you can inspect valves and seats for cracks or blow by.
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Ok, it is finally together, exhaust manifold welded and both manifolds have been planed. The car runs great but I need a heater control valve or a kit to change the seals. I will bypass the valve until I get them.
The Engine is now detailed and looks more like the outside of the car.
I went with an on-line Continental manual for the valve adjustment: Intakes .014" ; Exhaust .017". I did not go by the manual because it says both adjustments are at .014". It goes against the grain not to have the exhaust valve a little more clearance since they run hotter.
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Looks Great, best of luck with it!!