Author Topic: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder  (Read 5197 times)

MarkKnisley

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1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« on: June 03, 2011, 02:25:16 PM »
I was wondering if anyone out there has any tricks to unstick a valve without taking off the head of my 226?  I have full compression in all but one cylinder which is causing a hesitation when I hit the gas, and the car is running rougher than normal.  I have set the timing, and I am in the process of replacing all the spark plugs and wires.  But I have zero compression in the third cylinder.  I have heard Marvel Mystery Oil has worked for some, but I don't want to put anything harmful in the plug hole. I'm not sure if there is a better product out there that would remove the grime on the valve?  The car is all original with only 58,900 miles on it, but has sat for the last 5 years until I finally got it fired up two weeks ago, so I want to make sure I don't ruin anything.  Thanks so much! Mark

HJ-ETEX

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2011, 06:58:53 PM »
Mark - I know of several cars that don't run well because they have not been run regularly. The problem is the valves don't slide in the guides as smoothly as intended. The best I can say drive the car gently and hope that the springs, lifters and compression do the job. Otherwise you will have to remove the cylinder head to personally address the problem. There were a number of "upper lube" products that were sold to address such problems but because they were 1 pint added to 1 tank of gas, it would take a number of miles before you noticed any relief  - if they actually worked.
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kaiserkid

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 04:15:50 PM »
I had the same problem with my engine that had sat for more then 15 years. I used Marvel Mystery oil in the spark plug hole. I don't know actually how much I used because I used the dump method in the spark plug hole. This is not a quick overnight fix. I think it took almost 2 weeks for the oil to soak into the valve guide, but it did work. You can look in the spark plug hole and verify that the valve is stuck, then you will know for sure if that is the problem.

HJ-ETEX

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 07:34:14 PM »
kaiserkid touched on something everyone should understand: the sparkplug hole is not above the piston on flathead inline engines. It is actually above the valves. If you pour penetrating oil in the spark plug hole, it is just going down the intake & exhaust ports. You need to a plastic line and something like a big syringe to direct penetrating oil on the valve stems or into the cylinder.
Of course if you have no patience, you may as well remove the cylinder head.
KFOCI VP 2001-2005
1951 Kaiser Deluxe /327 Chevy
1951 Kaiser Deluxe (no funny stuff)
1968 Kaiser Commando V6
1961 Willys 2WD 134 F-Head SW
1963 Kaiser FC170

kaiserfrazerlibrary

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2011, 10:42:21 AM »
If you fill the spark plug hole so it comes to the top (or a bit over) you not only fill the area of the valves, but the top end of the firing chamber and piston.  The idea is to slightly overflow the hole and come back a bit later to refill the hole (you may find yourself doing this several times but you need to give the stuff time to get into anything it's going to get into and keep the supply coming until it doesn't drop any more) then let things sit for at least a week or two, checking and refilling as may be required.  Once this begins to work its way through it will continue to seep until it can't go any more. 

MarkKnisley

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2011, 04:11:29 PM »
Thanks guys for the help!  I got the Mystery Oil in the cylinder and let it sit for a few days, I now have 90 PSI in the cylinder however, it is still lower than the 125-130 in the others.  I will keep working working on it and maybe it will work itself out.

Now that I have compression, it is running smoother, but I am still getting quite a hesitation when pushing down on the gas.  If I slowly give it gas, it seems to rev up steadily, however, if I push down as I would in first gear to move forward, it hesitates for a second, sounds like some hissing from the carburetor, then it seems to catch up.  As you can imagine, this is making it quite hard to drive.

Another symptom is the car won't start without me having to pour gas in the carburetor first, and it seems that maybe when I am pumping the pedal it isn't getting gas to the carburetor.  My Grandpa (previous owner) installed a pump (not sure the name of it) that you have to turn on first before starting the car and it pumps gas up to the carburetor.  This typically makes a purring sound then stops once the gas is through the line to the carb.  It has stopped making the sound, and the car will not get gas to the carburetor.  It fires right up when I pour the gas in the carburetor on the first couple of turns.

Any thoughts?  I would love to get the car on the road again so I can show it, as it is an all original (except for the paint) third generation car bought brand new in August 1950 by my great-grandfather. 

Thanks again!
Mark

joefrazer

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2011, 04:46:21 PM »
The pump you heard was electric and is probably mounted under the floor back by the tank. The original fuel pump is mounted on the right front side of the engine and is probably too weak to adequately pump fuel to the carb, hence the hesitation and the problem with starting the car. I would replace the electric pump and have the carb rebuilt. I'm sure you will then see a difference!

Jim B PEI

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2011, 08:11:10 AM »
The electric pump might have stopped from an electrical fault, or more likely, from being incompatible with ethanol in gasoline. Ethanol took out TWO expensive in-tank fuel pumps in my Jeep in a couple of months before I found out there was (hidden, not disclosed) ethanol in all regular gasoline sold here, as of a short while ago. The symptoms were gradually increasing hesitation on acceleration and being harder to start--the pressure was falling due to ethanol-caused wear.

Ethanol is also a solvent, and use will dislodge crud and varnish which will possible plugging filters, needle and seat, and carb jets. But it sounds like you need a new electric pump, and to re-do your mechanical pump with parts that aren't susceptible to ethanol. Hint--never let your car sit for a week or more with the new gasoline, without running it. (Better to let it run dry before storing over winter if you do that.) Sitting too long with new gas causes all sorts of problems, and even stabilizing agents cause problems if the concentration is too high. In Spring, run through a tank of gas if you use a stabilizer and then run through another tank of fresh gas--take your car for a good long run

For my Kaiser and Studebakers, I have to run premium gas here, as it is 0% ethanol, mid is 5%, and regular is 10%. I noticed an immediate change in the power and driveability (as well as the mileage!) of my 88 Jeep and my other old cars.

As far as the low compression, further use and oil changes and MMO should help that. My Studebaker Wagonaire when I first got it would barely start, had low power, and blew solid blue smoke out both exhaust pipes, and leaked oil like a sieve. Previous owner hadn't used it much. Gentle long drives of well over an hour at highway speeds and lots of oil changes and additions to the gasoline of MMO, sorted that out over time--no oil burning, more power, starts easily.
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Logan

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2011, 10:26:14 PM »
Yes, definitely sounds like the accelerator pump may not be working right.  As for needing to pour gas down the carb to start it, that sounds like it could be the automatic choke adjusted too lean.  Have you played with it?  Here is a good website for these kinds of problesm http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Troubleshooting.htm.  The choke should be adjusted so it just closes at 68 degrees.  This means you need to go out there on a day you have not run the car when it is 68 degrees and adjust it so it the choke plate just makes contact with the throttle body.

MarkKnisley

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 05:55:31 PM »
Thanks for the advice, I am up to 80 psi in the cylinder. Got a new problem now: I changed my old spark plug wires out, and put in new Champion J8C plugs, went to fire it up and it will start but die once the gas is out of the Carb.  When I look down the carb, there is no gas squirting from the accelerator pump.  This may be the cause of the hesitation/bogging I was having previously.  The problem is, I have no idea how to fix the accelerator pump. Any suggestions? Do I have to pull the carb. off? I am hoping not.

Thanks for the help!
Mark

joefrazer

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2011, 07:45:45 PM »
To properly rebuild the carb, it needs to come off the car. On the 51s that's an easy job, 4 bolts, the fuel line and vacuum line and you're done. Replacing the accelerator pump will involve removing the top of the carburetor. I'm going to bet that there will be lots of sludge and grit in the fuel bowls and that can contribute to the problem. Also check the screen at the fuel inlet...they do clog!

MarkKnisley

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2011, 06:50:15 PM »
Guys again, thanks so much for the help.  So after getting the compression back in the third cylinder using Marvel Mystery Oil, I replaced all the spark plug wires with NOS wires, put in a fresh set of Champion J8C Spark Plugs, I was still having a hesitation.

I took a look at the fuel filter, however, it appears my grandfather pulled it off and put in a straight tube, so that wasn't clogged. I pulled out the accelerator pump and found that one of the holes was clogged with grime.  After blowing it out, I fired up the car and it is running better than it has since I have owned it.  So I got excited and hopped in and put it in gear and after it broke loose from sitting and I rolled it out of my garage I noticed that I have zero brakes.  The emergency brake works so I was able to stop the car, but it appears the car is ready to roll except for the brakes and I kind of need them, haha.

So my question is now about brakes.  Do you think if I add brake fluid to the car it will make the brakes work?  I have some break fluid that my grandfather left in the trunk.  I didn't get any brakes when pumping them, but I didn't really want to force them as I know that could do some damage to the Master Cylinder. I don't really know where the break fluid reservoir is to fill it.  And I was reading around the forum about possibly having to bleed them, I have no idea how to do this or what tools to use. Any advice would be appreciated.

Now that the engine is working well, I am ready to drive it around town for the first time in over 3 years.

Thanks for all your help!

On a side note, is there anywhere on the site that gives the dates of upcoming KFOC meets and locations?

Mark

joefrazer

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2011, 07:14:35 AM »
Brakes...my experience has been that a thorough going over of the whole system is best before attempting a drive. That said, the cylinder itself is under the drivers floor...you have to lift the mat to gain access. There's a small sqaure plate that you remove to get to the filler cap. If you have a Wagner cylinder, the cap is aluminium and will not want to come off. WD40 and patience will do the trick. The Raybestos version and some Wagners used a stamped cap that can be a bit easier to remove. Fill the reservoir and slowly pump the pedal to see if pressure returns.
Bleeding the brakes involves opening small bleeder screws at each wheel cylinder. Next to where the line enters the cylinder is a small bleeder screw...most are 1/4" 8 point in size and like the cap, won't want to break loose. Patience and some WD40 or PB Blaster helps. Once loose...start with the cylinder farthest from the master and work back towards it...pump the pedal until there's pressure and hold it with your foot and have someone else open the bleeder screw to let out the air. The pedal will sink to the floor. Close the bleeder then let your foot off the pedal. Do this at each wheel until you have pressure at the pedal. Chances are, though, the system will leak and you will have to rebuild it.

Logan

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Re: 1951 Kaiser Special No Compression in Third Cylinder
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2011, 05:13:41 PM »
If you don't have another person, the cheap one-man bleeder kits work well.  But, as joefrazer said, you will most likely have to rebuild the system, and it's not that hard to do.