More on judging cars at the National

[pnw_oldmags]

Well said Jack

[HJ-ETEX]

Jack has a good point on making a "book" about your car. It would be of paramount value in the restoration of a car. Since digital images are so common these days, a person can show MANY images of the car as it is disassembled as a help in reassembly. It can also show what was done in the way of repairs and replacement of parts. It can document any unique features found on the car or discovered in researching the restoration. When you sell the car this would be so valuable in supporting the price you ask for the car.
But wait, just because you bought a car that was relatively complete, that doesn't mean you can't make a "book" on that car as well. If you drive it, you are bound to make repairs.

[HJ-ETEX]

One more comment about Manitowac - At the banquet, Chief Judge Fred Walker asked the Judges who served that day to stand up. None of us did and a lot of laughter resulted.

[Fid]

I take lots of pictures of every project I undertake on my cars. You should see how greasy my digital camera is!  If nothing else, I can share the photos on here, which I have many times, and help others with similar issues.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

The idea of the book is FAR more than pictures of the car during restoration, maintenance or at shows and events.  You also want to do things like (if applicable):

1.  Page from the parts book showing that the factory called full wheel discs optional for dealer install if you have a base line model with the smaller hub cap; the Confidential Bulletin showing accessories installed at the factory on cars set for retail delivery is an alternative.

2.  K-F Service Bulletins or page(s) from the factory service manuals showing changes or different systems (like Auto-Lite OR Delco-Remy electrical systems on non-Hydra matic equipped 1951 Kaisers)

3.  Copies of a K-F Parts and Accessories Price List issued during the model year of your car, listing all the factory approved accessories correct for your vehicle.

The book needs to have factory documentation in case a judge gets it wrong.  Nobody can dispute the factory materials.

[AZ_HJ]

Jack (kaiserfrazerlibrary)

I am REALLY liking what I am hearing from you and Jim (pnw_oldmags) concerning the judging/restoration guide!


I assume that an original (unaltered) Kaiser-Frazer Body Code Number Plate (aka Data Plate) will be equal to Factory Documentation.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

If this goes as it should, the Body tag (with the paint, trim, etc) WOULD be the decider as to what basic equipment is correct on the car and also be used to identify type of paint (there were separate numbers for lacquer vs. enamel) was originally on the car.  I don't know how the paint type will play out at this point, though.

[HJ-ETEX]

Jack, You are forgetting the comment I made about Paul Harrelson's 4/6 cylinder HJ. This was a good car and there was no indication from the equipment that it was originally a 4 cylinder instead of a 6 cylinder. The Body Tag and Trim Tag are important, but I think it is wrong to put much attention on them if it is a common car.
For cars other than Convertibles or Darrins, unless the paint is really wrong, the National Judges are not concerned about the color match. At the National in Burlington, VT, there were 5 Velvet Maroon Dragons and I could see differences in color in all but 2 of the cars. They were all nice cars and all but a couple of KFOCI members would not have an issue about the color match.
I won't get into an argument about lacquer/enamel or 1 coat vs base/clear coat, but if you had an early HJ and painted it Big Bad Green, or GangGreen (factory late 60's early 70's pop colors for cars) instead of Aloha Green, then l would have an issue with the color. Really though, I wouldn't have to even look at the trim tag.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Paint is becoming more of a problem area than first anticipated.  Original paints aged differently depending on the supplier (and K-F had several different vendors for paint, especially the more exotic colors).  The challenge now is to see how much of a color deviation will be allowed on cars.  The Paint/Trim information on the body tag will identify the type of paint (lacquer or enamel) and the color that can be referenced off a vendor's paint chip.  The astute owner will note this as a "book" item to identify what the car was repainted with (if it was repainted) and keeping in mind that your local Ditzler (PPG) jobber can get a current formula for all K-F colors by contacting the Color Library at PPG headquarters.

Also, the tags will be used to settle correctness of matters such as wrong engine in an HJ or allstate (4 in a 6 or 6 in a 4) with point deductions made if required.

Please note that it appears the old car hobby has put a lot of faith in the KFOCI's ability to identify "correct original" cars after the AACA fiasco where the judges had to ask the owner of a 1951 Frazer if his V-8 engine was a factory option.  I was there when it happened, so I know who owned the car in question, what AACA meet is involved, etc.

[AZ_HJ]

How does everyone feel about powder coating frames vs paint?

[HJ-ETEX]

Ha Ha! Yes, I have been told of the event of the ACCA judging of the 51 Frazer with the V8. You know, I had not thought about it until just now if it was a Dale Hammon engine swap.
I believe it was PPG that first had the visible range spectrometer  (hand held color analyzer gun for non-science types) as an aid to match car paint. Well that isn't a cure-all because it first needs to test a non-faded color panel such as the inside of a fender, inside of a glove box door or, on 51-53 Kaisers, the back side of the instrument cluster. Then you have the problem of the mixing components.
I have an interest in the color Carribean Coral, well, because I have a car that color and I think it was a standout color as compared to what the other American car companies were offering at the time. BUT- the 49-50 version isn't the same as the 51 version and any version tended to bleach out with exposure to the sun. I thought the package tray on my car was matte silver or Grey, but in fact, it was body color and the sun had bleached out all the red pigment and metallic component. The paint chip sheets I looked at either were not that correct originally (you could tell your car was Carribean Coral rather than Cardinal, but not much else) or chips had degraded. I suspect it was both.
You could not get Carribean Coral mixed at your local car parts store back in the 1950's because that color (and several other KF colors) were listed as "factory pack." What that indicated was that if you wanted that paint, it would be suppled by the paint company directly. The color mixing components were not supplied to the local stores. The reasons suggested where 1) the proportions needed to get an acceptable match were more exact than what could be expected from a local store and 2) the shelf life was shorter than normal for some of the mixing components.
So, unless a paint company retained its secret formula for Carribean Coral AND they still have all the mixing colors available, what they offer would be a best guess. I solved the problem of selecting paint for my car by looking at cars on the road for about 2 years until I found an suitable match. I won't say it is an absolute match (I think even the factory would have had a problem there) but I do think it is better than some attempts at matching that color.
BTW, the last I heard a well known old car parts vendor was still (after more than 25 years) selling Apple Green paint as the correct color for 51-55 Kaiser engines despite numerous attempts by unhappy customers to correct this mistake.

[HJ-ETEX]

Powder coating? I don't see how that makes much difference unless you ended up with a finish similar to acrylic enamel with ultra urethane hardener. You would tend to end up with a black that was way too shiny.
There were stencils and crayon markings on the body & frames of these cars but unlike, say Corvettes, they aren't documented so their absence isn't an issue.
Powder coating or even urethane paint should make it easier to keep the car clean and looking nice.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

PPG jobbers should NOT be doing the color match themselves...they should contact PPG Corporate.   The company's Color Library keeps original matching samples in a temp/humidity controlled enviornment and their spectrometer breaks down the color into individual chemical components that the computer attached to it identifies to currently produced colors for mixing.

Jobbers get this service at no charge as part of corporate support, the idea being that the company gets the paint sale and the Jobber gets promotion within their local old car communities as THE source for original colors which (hopefully) leads to more business in this manner.

[Fid]

HJ's comments explain a lot about Caribbean Coral. I like the color, I think, since I've never really seen two Caribbean Coral cars that were the same color and now that explains it. Very interesting indeed.

[Orphanauto]

I always try to use actual factory photos, but not the ones showing prototype ect.. More of the shop manual or showroom brouchers that show how it really was when new on teh show room, to get it restored correct. I am curious, how does adding a "dealer" installed accesory such as a swamp cooler get judged. I know some dealers would sell and add non factory accesories to make abit more money. This was expecially true right after the war when everyone wanted a new car. I remember a gentleman in the Studebaker club mentioning his father had bought a new car in early 47, He was told they had new cars coming in the next week, but the sales guy made the mistake of taking him in back to gert a part, where he saw more new cars getting all the accesories added BEFORE they would put them on display, so you had to but it with those dealer add-ons. making more money for the dealer. Also curious if Jack, or anyone here knows if any KF dealers ever did that. just curious.