Author Topic: Rare Manhattan on ebay  (Read 6889 times)

Fid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
    • Email
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

Need your classic car radio repaired? I repair vacuum tube radios

joefrazer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4043
    • View Profile
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2011, 05:00:12 AM »
This one's in Harold's registry and was last owned by a fellow in IL. Harold's listing is older as it was reported by Dick Langworth. Interesting that the highest known serial numbered car is stick OD as it's the first 6-ish body numbers that used this set up.

kaiserfrazerlibrary

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3005
  • KFOCI Historian
    • AOL Instant Messenger - none
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - none
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2011, 07:17:26 AM »
According to various factory sources I have, this car would have been built in October 1950 (only 26 Hardtops total were built as of September 30, 1950).  By this point, all 1951 Frazer Manhattan convertibles that would be produced were built.  According to the factory numbers only 132 Hardtops were produced.

Hydra-Matic was an option, so it would be possible for a distributor to order a car with 3-speed.   While overdrive was an option as well, according to factory documents, all cars built--standard or Manhattan--that did not have automatic had the overdrive on their manual gearboxes.

Jim B PEI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
  • People want simple answers, even if they are wrong
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2011, 08:54:32 AM »
I have always wondered about that 'option' business. I seem to recall that only a very limited number of the overdrive equipped hardtop and convertible cars were produced, and that this had more to do with getting the tunnel modification and related bits sorted to accept the larger Hydramatic transmission. One explanation I was given one time at a National was that the body shells were already made up but as soon as the modifications were ready, all subsequent bodies were made up for Hydramatics and so equipped, as it was expected that these premium priced models would have all the bells and whistles possible including automatics. It would certainly explain the "oddity" of overdrive when compared to serial and body numbers, and why there might be such discrepancy for the item between the two. Once the early bodies were used up, no more overdrive. Except, it appears, that ALL bodies that they intended to build WERE used up, with the automatic-ready bodies exhausted first and so the highest recorded number, which also just happened to have overdrive and a low body number, might have been the very last body available and the position of someone ordering retail or wholesale would have been to be told--"there is just N left, and if you want one, it will have to be overdrive, not automatic. That's it, that's all"
KF
49 Kaiser Special Glass Green, Saskatchewan new
Studebaker
64 2dr 170-6 auto Astra White Commander Special
63 4dr Wagonaire 259V8 o/d Blue
57 4dr 185-6 auto Glendale Green/Turquoise
57 4dr 185-6 o/d Glendale Green/Turquoise W6 clone
lawn art
57 Stude 259V8 auto. 56 Panhard

HJ-ETEX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2011, 06:52:00 PM »
KF, Willys and particularly Studebaker used a "floor sweepings" concept. That is, a manager looked around and saw left over frames, bodies, or accessories and told the people on the line to put together what they had and use up as much of the parts inventory as they could. Thus there may be deluxe stuff on plain cars or even trim and major mechanical items 2 years after they were last officially cataloged.
KFOCI VP 2001-2005
1951 Kaiser Deluxe /327 Chevy
1951 Kaiser Deluxe (no funny stuff)
1968 Kaiser Commando V6
1961 Willys 2WD 134 F-Head SW
1963 Kaiser FC170

Fid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2011, 07:59:50 PM »
The 1995 edition of the club handbook states the first 6 hardtops had overdrive and the rest were Hydramatics. The latest edition does not make that claim so some new info must have been uncovered?  Interesting.
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

Need your classic car radio repaired? I repair vacuum tube radios

Jim B PEI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
  • People want simple answers, even if they are wrong
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2011, 09:31:46 PM »
KF, Willys and particularly Studebaker used a "floor sweepings" concept. That is, a manager looked around and saw left over frames, bodies, or accessories and told the people on the line to put together what they had and use up as much of the parts inventory as they could. Thus there may be deluxe stuff on plain cars or even trim and major mechanical items 2 years after they were last officially cataloged.

Which explains one Studebaker offering, the from Jan 1 1964 "Commander Special" which was the 2 door sedan body with a fancy Daytona interior including carpet instead of rubber matting. When South Bend shut down, they stopped building Convertibles (which had been built in Canada too), and Hardtops. It seems they had a lot of hardtop interiors left over, so for $185 you could get a deluxe trimmed base car. I have one of them, and even rarer still, perhaps unique, it was one specially built by the Canadian factory with a Canadian (before the US closure) serial # and special coding on the production order, and it was built well before they announced the US closure.

As far as "floor sweepings" the Daytona interior was only available in certain colours, as were the reclining seats on all lines only available in other certain colours, so a lot of the Specials were white to match with what they had in interiors.
KF
49 Kaiser Special Glass Green, Saskatchewan new
Studebaker
64 2dr 170-6 auto Astra White Commander Special
63 4dr Wagonaire 259V8 o/d Blue
57 4dr 185-6 auto Glendale Green/Turquoise
57 4dr 185-6 o/d Glendale Green/Turquoise W6 clone
lawn art
57 Stude 259V8 auto. 56 Panhard

Roadmaster49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2011, 09:45:03 AM »
I love this stuff. I just eat it up. Can't own every car, but discussions of significant cars is always well worth the time.

So, my questions considering my overall lack of KF knowledge and company culture.

1. Why is there no "soft" covering on this car as I understood all hardtops had this covering installed?

2. I see it often here and in other clubs were significant cars are apparently not owned by club members. I just find that unusual since you would think club members would gravitate toward the rare and unusual.  Would be nice if these fellows would join the club or at least say they were a former member and offer the car to club members first.

******* Langworth used to do buyers guides for most of the makes and he often stated that significant vehicles would change hands among club members by handshake agreements if for no other reason then to keep significant or well preserved cars "in house".  A lot of that is done, I know, but the greed bubble that came out after RL's buyers guide books saw a lot of cars leave club hands for the sake of money. I believe this was the late 1990's. 

Observation: Very nice 'time capsule' interior.  I love the 'forest/polo/dark' green paint but then to combine it in the interior with saddle leather the way that is stitched is very nice. 

Wish I was in the league with the buyers for this car.
No old cars owned.

Fid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 12:35:18 PM »
1. Why is there no "soft" covering on this car as I understood all hardtops had this covering installed?

I'm not sure where you may have gotten this information. Perhaps it refers to the 1949/50 Kaiser Virginian hardtops as all of those did have the vinyl covered top but it is definitely not the case with 1951 Frazer hardtops.  I have read that a very few 1951 Frazer hardtops had the vinyl cover but in all my years in the KF hobby, I have never seen one. I'm sure they do exist but only a very few. All 1951 Frazer hardtops I have encounted do not have a vinyl covered top.
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

Need your classic car radio repaired? I repair vacuum tube radios

joefrazer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4043
    • View Profile
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 02:56:39 PM »
Roadmaster, while the restoration costs on a hardtop can get pricey...the initial investment doesn't have to be. A nice 49 Virginian that was an AZ car just sold for $2900. It ran and yard drove and aside from different color front fenders, was a presentable car.

On the subject of hardtops with roof coverings, I had one and Andy Lazenby, a member from western Ohio had one. The covering on my car fell off...that should tell you what shape the car was in...and Andy's car sold after his passing. I don't know where it is today.

kaiserfrazerlibrary

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3005
  • KFOCI Historian
    • AOL Instant Messenger - none
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - none
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 03:16:41 PM »
Factory information found so far on the 1951 Frazer Manhattan is a bit sketchy compared to other K-F products;  I know of no factory issued list on Manhattan paint and trim #'s but some information was gathered from surviving cars back in the 1960's and 70's when there seemed to be more of them about.   As cars continue to be found not on the roster previously, more blanks can be filled in, provided owners report all the info off the various tags (body tag, serial number tag, etc).  Unfortunately, few if any buyers or sellers do this.

According to what is known, the 'basic' version of the car came equipped with 3-speed and overdrive; Hydra-Matic was an option, but as already pointed out, the transmission tunnel needed modifications to fit the harger transmission case. 

As far as the first 6 etc, people used body numbers and made assumptions.  However, new info found in archives at the Bancroft better pinpoint when Manhattans were produced (both hardtops and convertibles); this info will be out to members the next time the KFOCI HANDBOOK is released (it will be the first updated version of the CD material).

Jim B PEI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
  • People want simple answers, even if they are wrong
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2011, 07:36:15 AM »
About 'pricey' restorations, and in particular, hardtop and convertible Kaiser and Frazer 49/50 and 51F.
There are quite a few 'unobtainium' parts for these cars.
-I note that someone has been trying to find a window frame for some time (years?)
-51 F fresnel taillights in good condition or usable. $600 for a not perfectly authentic hand made copy?
-certain bits of trim specific to these cars, as well as the 51F "Vagabond" or "Manhattan" script.
-the hydraulic window mechanisms--$$$ to rebuild
-the removable rectangular glass insert between front and rear doors
-of course, reproducing the interior can be done; its only money
I'm certain that there are other bits that are just as rare. No doubt someone more knowledgeable will remind us.

The 51 F Hardtop on Ebay seems to have all, or just about all, of the necessary bits, and in my estimation, seems to be a nice driver and could be restored. Fixing the radio and the wipers is not all that difficult.  I actually prefer the 51 Frazer hardtops to the 49/50 Virginians, and the lines of the hardtops to the lines of the convertibles. Of course, if it had been me that found the green convertible with leather interior that had been sitting in the indoor garage in Massachusetts? for 40? years, I'd keep it!
KF
49 Kaiser Special Glass Green, Saskatchewan new
Studebaker
64 2dr 170-6 auto Astra White Commander Special
63 4dr Wagonaire 259V8 o/d Blue
57 4dr 185-6 auto Glendale Green/Turquoise
57 4dr 185-6 o/d Glendale Green/Turquoise W6 clone
lawn art
57 Stude 259V8 auto. 56 Panhard

Roadmaster49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2011, 10:05:53 AM »
Jim B

I just sent a deposit off on a 49 Virginian in rough condition but appears to have the Virginian specific parts except I can't see a front fender badge.  The 51's would be tougher to justify.
No old cars owned.

Doc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 531
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2011, 05:26:42 PM »
Indeed!  I have been looking for a left front vent window frame assembly since 2007. I am led to believe a particular supplier may have one but to date has not exercised the effort to look and confirm one way or the other.....
Yes, the tailight lens for an incredible $600.
Front door outside OR inside chrome door moldings - forget about it.
Even the molding clips for the outside door moldings, the rocker panel moldings, and especially the upper back window molding....good luck!  Been there done that and you won't find them at the well-known national suppliers.....you got to find something you can modify.
Let's not foget the front grille Frazer emblem!
Parking light lenses
The front grille
The rear fenders moldin gs behind the rocker panels.....I see someone in the newsletter I think it is (maybe here on the forum) has been searching for awhile.
The list goes on. 

'54 Manhattan
'54 Late Special
'51 Frazer sedan

FrazerWill

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: Rare Manhattan on ebay
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2011, 06:08:18 PM »
Always been interested in the power windows. Do the button always go in the same spot as this car's are?

I also noticed that the rear door button is right under the pull handle... (look at the 3ed from the last pic)