Fuel Pump Question and Vapor Lock Problem

[jag52bkm]

I need your advise.  I hava a Kaiser Manhatten 1952 B.  Stock engine.  I need to replace my fuel pump.  Is there any advantage to installing a electric fuel pump?  I have had frequent problems with vapor lock.  Would an electric pump help with this or is there any other suggestions?

Thank you for reading this.

John 9763

[DaveF]

I have a 52 that I installed a 6-volt electric fuel pump in front of gas tank......... I've had no vapor lock.  Many 'old car' guys are doing this to help correct vapor lock problems.

May I suggest a 'kill/cut-off' switch for fuel pump located under dash in case of emergency or repairs where ignition is in the 'on' postition.

Dave F.

[boatingbill]

As a long time boater, I don't like ethanol additive gas. Boats don't have radiators for cooling, only fresh or salt water pumped through the motor. Ethanol burns hotter and reduces gas mileage. It is
a great solvent and can attack gas tanks and seals and older cars/boats rubber based fuel lines. It
caused huge expenses to boats with fiberglass tanks, literally dissolving them. Too bad we all don't have access to ethanol free marine gas. I have read that the amount of ethanol in gas can vary
from 10 to 18%. This may account for part of the vapor lock problem. It looks like a electric fuel
pump is the only was to go for anyone who drives a considerable distance. Has anyone had leakage
problems recently due to ethanol gas usage for several years?

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Various old car and truck owners have had seal deterioration due to the changing formula of gasoline since 1986.  GM, Ford and Chrysler are still standing by a maximum of 10% alcohols in pump gas but even then they have problems in some vehicles despite changing seal, fitting and other components from rubber to neopreme to ? (proprietary materials) in an effort to retard affects.  Ironically, K-F products built for export could be ordered by the overseas distributors with alcohol-based fuel system components (you will find this in the parts books).  Too bad these parts are no longer available; they're just what we need to solve the problem on deterioration.  Unfortunately, it will do nothing to solve the lower evaporation temperature.  That's why the constant and slightly higher pressure provided by an electric pump is required.

[Logan]

I was in Idaho earlier this summer and noticed that Sinclair had ethanol free fuel, but you can't get it in Texas.  I don't know how common it is in other areas of the US.

[Jim B PEI]

One thing. Locally here in Atlantic Canada, one province has mandated 10% ethanol in all regular fuel sold, 5% in mid, and 0% premium. We have two refineries in the Maritimes, one in Nova Scotia, and the ethanol-mandated one in New Brunswick (which also happens to be the largest refinery in Canada) So, unless you are in Nova Scotia, you will end up with Ethanol in New Brunswick, and might in Prince Edward Island...unless you buy premium

When you are buying gasoline, are ALL grades infused with ethanol?

[boatingbill]

In my travels in the USA, I noticed that all grades of gas (regular,mid grade and premium)
have  ethanol added. The government says it is to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, but
with ethanol your mileage goes down so you buy more gas. Government logic at work.

[Jim B PEI]

Then it is time to make sure your congress people "understand" this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

The sad truth is that 1 gallon of gasoline does the same work of 1.5 gallons of ethanol. Adding ethanol to gasoline is a backwards move for energy independence.

It would be much more to the point to adopt "clean" diesels which are more efficient, partly due to diesel fuel which has higher energy than gasoline, and partly because it is a more efficient combustion process. Using a field to grow soybeans to make biodiesel is MUCH more efficient than using the same field to grow corn to make ethanol. Even at the B100 level still has MORE energy than regular gasoline, even if it is somewhat less than dinosaur crude oil sourced diesel.

If they STILL don't get it, then a hint that propane and compressed natural gas are even WORSE choices than ethanol by a huge huge margin--so diesel/biodiesel is an even better choice for energy independence. Natural gas is only going to make certain people richer, for very expensive vehicle conversions and filling up three times as often.

Its only math and science--even congress people should get that

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

At last check, the EPA lists over 60 different blends for gasoline; some are season specific (winter vs. summer) others are region specific (Southern CA, Northeast, Chicago area, etc). 

It should also be noted that in the late 1970's an idea was floated in Congress to put a 10 cent/gallon tax on leaded fuel.  According to the EPA there was a problem with some people (numbers NEVER given) who opened up the filler hole so the larger diameter pump nozzles could be inserted in the filler pipe.  The additional tax was intended to offset the 2-4 cents/gallon added cost for unleaded fuel.  The general concensus at the EPA was good idea, the money to be earmarked for petroleum related clean up costs.  William Ruckelshouse, head of the EPA vetoed it because HIS plan, backed by President Carter was to stop leaded fuel production ASAP.  Ruckelshouse cited studies that indicated inner city children got lead posioning from breathing exhaust gases in the air from traffic.  Later, it turned out, the real problem was lead-based paint in the older inner core houses but again, the EPA refused to reconsider because according to one official "we would loose credibility on the big stuff".

[Jim B PEI]

I need your advise.  I hava a Kaiser Manhatten 1952 B.  Stock engine.  I need to replace my fuel pump.  Is there any advantage to installing a electric fuel pump?  I have had frequent problems with vapor lock.  Would an electric pump help with this or is there any other suggestions?

Thank you for reading this.

John 9763

To answer your question, I have a Studebaker Wagonaire which runs on this type of electric pump (solely) and it has never let me down in 10 years. Mine of course is the higher pressure one than the listing following---HERE is a listing for an HJ at correct pressure of 2.5 to 4 psi but it is also perfect for a full-size Kaiser or Frazer, except, of course, I'd hesitate before using it in conjunction with the supercharged Manhattans as special condition might apply, and I have no knowledge of them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/6-volt-electric-Fuel-Pump-Henry-J-1953-1952-1951-/380364677351?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item588f8060e7

[pnw_oldmags]

QUESTIONS:  1) Would you install this electric fuel pump back by the Fuel tank?  2) Would you remove your existing mechanical pump??  3) Would you put the electric full pump on a switch or use it all the time??

[Jim B PEI]

1) I would install it back by the fuel tank. In reality on my Studebaker, it is in the *wrong* location (underneath the drive door area!) but it has never failed me under any conditions.
2) It depends on the type of pump. If you have a 'flow through' (vane??) type--I think the Carter P4256 or some number like that , is of that type??-- then you could add it in addition to the mechanical pump, as a 'priming pump'. (This same company also sells 6 volt pumps of the "priming" type--I would contact them for a further explanation of what they are offering). If you have a solenoid type, which I think this is, then it is a replacement for the mechanical type. My Studebaker does not have a mechanical pump anymore, just a blockoff plate. NOTE: for the look of authenticity, you can retain a mechanical pump with the cam arm cut or removed, and the gas line routed through the pump. With a hidden switch, and hiding the pump, no-one but you would ever know. I didn't bother with this as I received the car in the shape it is in, and it has only ever been a driver. As long as it works, I won't fiddle with it. (only modify an existing mechanical pump that is completely trashed and needs a full rebuild anyway--don't waste a good core)
3) is the same as 2--it depends. Mine is on all the time when the key is on*
4)* This can be a problem, and if doing this as a full time pump, for goodness sake put an interrupter switch in it!!!  EITHER have it die when the oil pressure drops (ie, with a separate override button for starting and priming purposes until oil pressure is established) OR have a 'bump' type switch that I think some modern Fords had in the trunk, that you have to re-set manually.

[pnw_oldmags]

Thanks,   After driving our 53K this weekend 350 miles in 95+ heat it was always a concern.  Luckily it only Vapor Locked at home when I went to garage her after unloading everything.  From past experience... when driving in heat we always park ... in the shade, nose down if possible, let her run a few minutes prior to shut down and open the hood upon stopping prior to shut down.   These steps have kept us from pouring gallons of cool water on the fuel line and fuel pump.  My opinion... wooden clothes clips don't work, aluminum foil on the gas line does not work.  I do think an electric fuel pump is in our future.  Jim

[Logan]

Thanks for those tips, oldmags, I've been pouring water, but maybe this will help.

[Mac_Frazer]

Gotta tell ya, I'm having my mechanical rebuilt, and I installed a new electric pump. The other one died,
thats when I found out the mechanical didn't work either.

So my thought is have the mechanical running and use it till hot weather gets here, then use the electric
in tandem. But make sure that the electric has a flow thru capability when not powered up.
That way, you got a backup fuel pump to rely on as well.

steve