First post ,need assistance on '49 Virginian

[studeq]

My first post here and I am just seeking some "expert" opinions. I am a Studebaker collector (have 11 pre WWII cars) but my question is re a '49 Kaiser. Two friends and I bought a 13 car collection out of an estate in Pennsylvania some months ago and included in this collection was a nice '49 Virginian. We cannot afford to keep all of the cars and have decided to sell this car. The car runs and drives fine and looks to be an older restoration. We are hoping to get a fair price but we really don't know what a fair price is! This is not a #1 car but maybe a 21/2. I am including a few photos for your examination. Can supply more if needed. Feel free to contact me directly at rtq11@aol.com. Thanks.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

As you are involved in old cars already, I am sure you realize the photos are somewhat worthless unless you have the "as originally built" information to compare it to.  This information--paint code number, interior trim number, etc) will be found on the firewall body tag.  Also necessary is the serial number tag off the door post (by the driver side front door hinges) and the body serial number off that firewall body tag.

Additional pictures would be needed to determine condition/correctness of the engine compartment, interior and trunk.

There is not enough information provided, in my opinion to even attempt to venture ideas on price.  To do that properly, one needs to go through the car in person, so to speak rather than rely on descriptions and a couple photos.

[custom]

A 1950 Virginian sold at the Mecum auction in Dallas, Texas in Oct '11 for $15,000.

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=DA1011-114799

[KWZ]

Your Virginian looks like a decent restoration of a nice car.  I looked closely at your Ebay listing.  The interior apppears to be re-done in vinyl instead of leather, which is a huge turn-off to alot of K-F guys who are in the market for a nice car.  If the interior is real leather, you should let people know.  There are also several incorrect details, all of which could be corrected without much effort.  I think the car is worth somewhere in the 12K-15k range.  If the interior is leather, I think the car could be worth much more.  The Virginian that sold at Mecum in TX mentioned above was an EXCELLENT original car in a rare color and the right buyers did not show up.  In my opinion, that car was a give-away at 15K. 

[studeq]

Thanks for the input. The interior is definitely vinyl. To have it redone in leather would not be financially prudent insofar as resale is concerned since the cost would exceed the benefit. I do appreciate the ball park figure which all I was needing.  Many years ago I bought out a Studebaker dealer in Peoria Heights, Illinois and they also sold Kaisers/Frazers and had a good supply of parts. I recall being told way back then that the only old car people cheaper than Studebaker collectors were Kaiser/Frazer collectors. I am not sure if that is still true but I do recall having to almost give away the K/F parts. Incidentally I can attest to the fact that Studebaker people are cheap! Most of them readily admit it. On their forum there is an oft used acronym CASO, meaning Cheap Ass Studebaker Owner.  They are cheap and proud of it! Maybe its a good thing, it allows the non-millionaires to get into the hobby and I am all for that. Thanks again we will probably lower our sights a little on the price.

[kenneth]

Hi what a beautiful car You have,a wild guess is that You wont see another one on Your block.

[KWZ]

Thanks for the input. The interior is definitely vinyl. To have it redone in leather would not be financially prudent insofar as resale is concerned since the cost would exceed the benefit. I do appreciate the ball park figure which all I was needing.  Many years ago I bought out a Studebaker dealer in Peoria Heights, Illinois and they also sold Kaisers/Frazers and had a good supply of parts. I recall being told way back then that the only old car people cheaper than Studebaker collectors were Kaiser/Frazer collectors. I am not sure if that is still true but I do recall having to almost give away the K/F parts. Incidentally I can attest to the fact that Studebaker people are cheap! Most of them readily admit it. On their forum there is an oft used acronym CASO, meaning Cheap Ass Studebaker Owner.  They are cheap and proud of it! Maybe its a good thing, it allows the non-millionaires to get into the hobby and I am all for that. Thanks again we will probably lower our sights a little on the price.

We can be pretty cheap.  I think the prices on some of these cars is depressed because, quite frabnkly, the number of people who appreciate these cars is dwindling.  I am only 35 and I remember a time when these rare models NEVER changed owners.  In the past 20 years this has changed, as hardtops and convertibles come out of collections where they have been for 40+ years.   On the other hand, the prices Darrins are bringing are changing that reputation.  Too bad about the vinyl interior.  That seems to be pretty common on cars restored in the 70s/early 80s.  I recently looked at a '41 Cadillac convertible sedan with a vinyl interior.  The seats looked like a booth at Denny's in 1974. 

[Roadmaster49]

Precisely why I am sticking around. I purchased a 49 Virginian rough project car for $600. Obviously it's a 1st year production 4 door hardtop. Compareably, a 49 GM 1st year hardtop project would be $4000 to $10,000.

Also the hobby has no logic and we know that. The most popular cars are muscle cars and many are cloned. A wreck of a 69 Chevy Camaro can bring $10,000 and they regularly go for six figures at auction.

Meanwhile I can buy a lot of KF and thoroughly enjoy the hobby.  So you are correct that we are "cheap". 

[boatingbill]

I like the word frugal instead. In 1955 my dad bought a '53 Kaiser Manhattan for $950 and traded in
his '48 Frazer. He drove the Kaiser for 17 years! In the early sixties the rear end started to howl, so
we went to a bone yard and found a '53 with a blown engine. The owner said we strip the whole
car for $25 and boy did we strip it. As a teenager I thought it was fun. Of course I was driving a
'51 kaiser Deluxe at the time, so that was part of it. He saved a ton of money over those 17 years
with all those "frugal" parts. Those savings allowed us to go on family vacations each year.

[studeq]

Some interesting comments and observations, thanks for those.  I will bet most of the people on this forum remember Jack Benny and if so you know he was known for being one of the worlds greatest misers. One of his lines went "I am not cheap I am just careful with my money." Not a bad characteristic to possess these days. Another was on his old radio show back in the '30s: "I was going to buy my wife a Packard for Christmas but it took too long for them to deliver so I bought her some handkerchiefs."

I am glad we can all keep our sense of humor about such things and am also pleased to meet some other OLD orphan car owners (Old orphans as opposed to old owners). I have a bunch of old Studebakers that you can see here if so inclined (no obligation): http://www.thestudebakerwheel.com/mycars/mycars.htm

[boatingbill]

Studeq: Love that '39 red pickup. What a great design!

[studeq]

Thanks Bill. I have always thought that the 1937-39 Studebaker Coupe Expresses were the most handsome pre WWII pickups ever built (and maybe post WWII as well!). My personal favorite is the '39 but I also have a '38 that is not shown on my website.

[Roadmaster49]

I too enjoyed looking at the photos. Whatever you purchased in this recent "grab all or nothing" must have been pretty exciting.  I wonder if KF has a database tracking these cars? 

[Jim B PEI]

Yes, it does. On the main page of www.kfoci.com  go to registries>>Kaiser-Frazer registry>>>on-line registry.

There are currently 53 49-50 Frazer Virginians reportinged, which includes cars long since disappeared as well as existing ones. If you find out a car--say, even on Ebay--why not report it to Harold Hagen so that if it pops up at a future time it can be tracked/how it was built according to the body tags can be compared.

Since there are no factory production records like Studebaker has, its only by reporting and comparing original cars data plates that much has been discovered.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

At present, there are some more detailed records available than at the time KFOCI HANDBOOK Version 4.0 went out in 2009:  one reason the project went to CD was to make re-releasing the material as updates turned up easier and much less expensive.  Between what was known already and the material that has good detail for Willow Run (and willow run ONLY) production through August 1952, we can identify over 88% of all cars built through the end of American Kaiser production.  All that may be needed are the Operating Reports through December 31, 1952, December 31, 1953 and December 31, 1954 and we should be able to just about wrap things up as the reports not only detailed production (totals) by model year, make, series and model, but further broke out export production (which is very helpful when it comes to the Henry J) and production at other facilities (like Jackson MI). 

The KFOCI Registry had a problem when started because nobody thought of it, apparently.  What was mising was a STATUS column so people would know that the car (at time of report) was original excellent condition down to junkyard beyond hope.  That and lack of detail off the tags in many cases (the blank spots on the line items) hasn't made things easy.