My 1948 Frazer Standard

[mtbearded1]

I've now had the Frazer for about one year.  Bought it Memorial Day weekend in Lewistown, Montana.  It was purchased new in Wolf Point, Montana.  In the year I've had it, I've shown it in seven shows, all within Montana.  In each case, it was the only K-F car on display.  Tried to drive it over to Wheelin' Walla Walla last year for the PNW Fall Meeting, but lost power then brakes on Lolo Pass at the Montana/Idaho state line.  Trailered it back home where it sat until this past week.  Now I'm trying to determine what is causing the car to lose power after being driven for about 1/2 hour.  Looking at 1) fuel pump and vapor lock; 2) ignition coil over heating; 3) wrong spark plugs; 4) anything else you can recommend I check out.  Previous owner (son of original owner) supposedly put $13K into restoring the car before he decided it was a money pit.  I love it and want to continue to show it, but am getting weary of sitting alongside the road for 2 1/2 hours waiting for it to cool down so I can restart it.  Any suggestions are welcome.

Bryan
mtbearded1 in Missoula, Montana

[pnw_oldmags]

What a beautiful car.
I did not know early K-Fs had the vapor lock issues.
I will be watch the comments of others with interest.

[Fid]

mtbearded1, I saw your car last August when I was passing through Missoula on my way from Minneapolis to Portland. I even took a couple pictures and posted them on here.

I had a '48 Frazer which was almost the same color. It vapor-locked terribly which was typical of the early cars. It was only a problem if you shut the car off and let it sit for a short period of time and tried to start it again. I don't recall that it ever lost power as I was driving it. One thing that could be causing that is rust in the gas tank. Does it happen when the tank is low? If so, the pump could be sucking up rust and clogging the line. You fill it with gas and it's OK till it goes low again.
In the photos I took, I see yours is missing the front piece of the rocker trim on the passenger side. I know of a parts car that still has it if I'm not mistaken. If you're interested, let me know and next time I am in the area of the parts car, I'll try to get the part for you.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

There is more to the problem than you are apparently aware of.  According to the current GM standard for unleaded regular gasoline, they expect it to evaporate at a temperture about 100 degrees F lower than gas did when our cars were new.  This reflects the EPA ban on certain fuel additives most notably the good ole "Lead".  As a result, vapor lock happens to cars that never had the problem before.  Dale Hammon worked out what seems to be a good fix for the problem when he upgraded the 1951 Kaiser Special Business Coupe Barbara and I used to have.  An electric fuel pump is mounted in the rear axle area of the underbody along the fuel line route between gas tank and the regular car fuel pump...there is a corner you can "hide"it in that area.  A hidden switch behind the dashboard turns it on at the first time of sputtering if you want to run it only as needed.  The pump boosts the fuel pressure a bit, forcing the gasoline into the carb.  It also moves any traces of air bubbles starting to form due to the heat.   It worked, and he did this to other K-F products with good results. 

To put this better in perspective, when the L-850 engine for GM vehicles was under test in a prototype Saturn SUV, it vapor locked repeatedly at the Arizone proving grounds.  The finding was that the fuel rail (bolted directly to the top of the cylinder head assembly) was getting hot because the air would only flow around the top (bottom sat on the head assembly)and not under as well.  Shimming the rail created a slit for air to move under it and lowered the temperature of the rail about 40 degrees F in test.  This was enough (along with the 60 psi of fuel pressure through the rail that the system normally operated with) to end the vapor lock issue until a better design could be implemented.

[Fid]

I owned my '48 in the late 1970s before modern fuel. Vapor lock was a problem even back then when you could still get regular leaded gasoline. I remember seeing a piece somewhere in KF club bulletins, or perhaps a factory bulletin, which recommended cutting a hole in the wall next to the radiator to let air flow through onto the fuel line. I never tried that but I agree, an electric fuel pump can do wonders and should correct the problem. I never tried it as I sold the car around 1981 or so. It was a great riding/driving car and very enjoyable to own. In my opinion, you can't beat the early slab-siders for a comfortable ride. I sold the car to pay off some bills and stuff I had at the time. If I had it back, it would have an electric pump on it.  I know the modern fuel does present additional challenges but the design of the car does too as none of my Js have ever vapor locked and I drive them on the hottest days in the summer. The 1951 Kaiser Special which my brother-in-law and sister now have was driven regularly in Tucson, AZ and it never vapor locked. The first few years I had it here it didn't either but I know the fuel was changed again recently and Minnesota, where nothing is allowed, they have different fuels. Non-oxygenated doesn't seem to help so we will go with an electric pump eventually. They're not that expensive and not too difficult to install. Again, vapor lock may not be your problem but if it starts right up after sitting awhile, it's a good possibility.

[boatingbill]

mtbearded1: This is a old-time fix, but it works. Carry a small cooler in the trunk with couple of
pints of water on ice. If the car quits running, open the hood to get the heat out (pulling to the
side of the road and keeping the hood closed causes the heat to go up tremendously and makes the
problem worse) and then pour the cold water on the pump and the fuel line between the carb and
fuel pump. It may have to crank over several times for the pump to refill the carb before it will
start. It this cures the stalling problem, I would recommend the electric pump as a long term
fix.

[mtbearded1]

Boatingbill--My dad's 1950s Fords always locked up as we were driving over McDonald Pass (US Highway 12 west of Helena, Montana).  He was always able to stop near a water fountain, and pour cool mountain water under the hood somewhere (I was too young to really be aware of what he was doing).  I'll try your suggestion  before adding the electric fuel pump--something I had to add to my 1976 Triumph Spitfire because of the location of the mechanical fuel pump that just would get too hot. 

I do think there's another issue as well.  When the car died on Saturday, a old car guy driving by stopped and put his head under the Frazer's hood.  He determined that the gas was, indeed, flowing, but there was no spark coming from the extremely hot ignition coil.  I have since replaced the coil, and the car still dies on me after 1/2 hour or so of driving.  It won't start up again for 2-2 1/2 hours, which is much too long to sit beside the road.  On Wednesday when this happened, a friend from the local Rods and Customs club saw me stranded and he, too, stuck his head under the hood.  He felt that there was a problem with the distributor--perhaps the capacitor inside had fried. 

And finally, yes, I am aware that today's gas is much more volatile than the gas we used 60+ years ago.  But until I determine that the problem is, indeed, vapor lock, I'm facing a conundrum.  I really want to be driving the car on a daily basis, but I don't want to get stranded after driving 1/2 an hour.  And since the car just dies while driving (usually after idling at a light), I have to wonder if it isn't something more than just vapor lock.

[boatingbill]

Mtbearded1: The great thing about KF products is that they are relatively easy to troubleshoot.
The next time your car stalls, remove the air cleaner and look into the carb (easy to see on a
sunny day, but may need a flashlight on a cloudy day) and while looking operate the throttle
linkage on the side of the carb. If you see gas spraying into the carb throat, your trouble is NOT
fuel. My car ('51 Kaiser)would quit for no reason and after doing the procedure above, I took the
distributor cap off and found that the wire from the coil was shorting out. The cloth insulation on
the wire was thread bare (62 years old!) and was shorting to the side of the distributor. Let us
know and we can look deeper if need be.

[haroldworthington@yahoo.c]

I remember back when I was Young I knew Men who had this problem and They just put wooden Clothes Pins on the Fuel lines to keep the Vapor Lock from happing. Do any One remember this?

[joefrazer]

The clothes pins act like fins on a radiator and dissipate heat. Some folks say it works, I tried it on a 53K I had that vapor locked regularly and it did not.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

The clothes pins have to be of a material that conducts heat...wooden pins do no good because they are an insullator

It also turns out that even recent manufacture neoprene hoses will rot out with today's gasolines...you need the new spec material from Gates Rubber Company according to those who restore old trucks (where the problem can be even worse on the COE and Short Cab high hood types).  You also need to replace ALL the rubber or fiber fittings in Carb and fuel pump. 

We are not the only ones having the problem.  Only the older ford motor company products don't suffer as their parts were engineered to work with "white gas" which was the 1950's-1960's version of unleaded fuel.

[JoeKeys2010]

I had a similar problem on my 49 Kaiser. I dropped the tank, had it cleaned and lined. Replaced all the gas line from the tank to the pump. Filled it with non ethanol gasoline and have not had a problem since. .

[Mac_Frazer]

Mine, had an electric fuel installed when I bought it, which had a cutout switch under the dash.....it was a flow thru so the pump didn't have to run all the time. 
After reading about the vapor locks, I looked at the routing of the fuel line, and noticed on mine, it was coming off the fuel pump (front right corner) straight up along the block, and across the top of the intake manifold. So I'm thinking of
getting some more fuel line and routing it a little further out from the those parts, or find and insulator type material to wrap it in to keep the line from getting hot.....
I get a little short, and lack of patience when I break down on the road....   I hate it when that happens......

Course then again, I live at 6700ft.....So its going to happen.

[Mac_Frazer]

So what kind of additives does everyone use for compensating for the poor grade of gasoline we have
now.  Can you even buy ethanol free gas anymore, haven't seen it here in CO. 

[kfnut]

At the Nationals in Rochester New York , i believe in 1991 , a older gentleman from Tennesee was telling his HARD LUCK story at the awards ceremony on Friday morning talking about his car vapor locking on the trip and how he put a quart of diesel fuel in the tank to stop it . I could hear people snickering about it but some time later i was reading an old article , by Mccall i believe , who was testing a Henry J in a hot area where he did the same thing to stop the vapor locking . Of course he was using leaded gas and it might not work on todays gas . Ethenol free gas is available but not everywhere .