Cutting Out

[Logan]

Yesterday I took a drive, approximately 30 miles round trip.  It was on a highway over hilly terrain and every time I went up a hill the car started cutting out.  It was very regular and would "go" for 3 seconds and then I would have no power for 3 seconds, and it would alternate like this all the way up the hill, at which point I was only going about 30 mph, down from 65 mph.  When I would start going down I would pick up speed and eventually the problem would stop until the next hill.  At first I thought it was vapor lock (please see the related post about this http://kfclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=1070.0), even though it was only about 80 degrees outside, but I was on a highway with stoplights, and I thought maybe it was heating up while I was stopped at a light enough to cause vapor lock, but I really don't think this is the problem.

Then I remembered 84RabbitGti's suggestions that I might have a broken wire in my distributor (see related post http://kfclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=852.15).  I admit that I have not replaced this wire, but I did a tune-up 2 days ago in which I replaced the points, and the wire was intact and seemed fine, albeit frayed on one end.  Maybe this is the problem, what do you think?

One more thing, at one point I pulled off the highway and took a road up a VERY steep grade.  It started doing the same thing, but since it was so steep and I wasn't going very fast, I didn't have enough momentum to keep going, and it stalled.  I was able to start it back up twice, but each time I put it into gear (hydramatic) and started  moving, it woudl stall again.  In the end I had to turn around and go down the hill and return home another way.

Suggestions?

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Run the check list that has worked for me over the years.

1.  In the baking supplies area of larger stores, look for a cooking thermometer that looks like a regular one (not the kind you stick into meat) with a scale of at least 250 degrees F.  Use it to check the water temperature (and level) in the top of the radiator.    When sender units fail in a Kaiser (1951-55 in particular) the gage will register cooler than reality & stop around the halfway point so it can't tell you if you're over heating.

If you are overheating, check thermostat (you may just want to take it out) and if you are using J-8 plugs, go down to the heat range of an Auto-Lite A-5 for a slightly cooler spark.  J-8's were NEVER actually used in K-F products; Fred Walker could get them as wholesale to retail out so it became the standard while he was Chief Judge.

Other ideas next post

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Check list continues:

2.  Today's gasoline evaporates at much lower temperatures than gas produced when K-F cars were new.  More and more people--not just K-F owners--are having to install electric fuel pumps to maintain pressure.  When the engine starts to sputter, it cuts down on pump performance, starting a lethal circle (more sputter, less performance, less  performance more sputter).

3.  If you have a spare ignition coil, try it and see if you get an improvement.  As the coils age, they sometimes tend to change internal resistance and other characteristics making it harder to function.  Not usually the problem but easy enough to do.  Also, you might want to replace that little bit of wire in the distributor just on general principles.  I had the problem in my Business Coupe and never spotted anything amiss as the wire's problem was not at the post but inside the insullated area.

[montefrazer]

This sounds more like a fuel problem to me since it comes under a higher power demand and goes away under normal conditions. It could be vapor lock, a partially plugged filter, if you are using one, a weak pump, small leak in the gas line, cracked hose or rust hole in metal line allowing air to be pulled in, or carb float adjustment problem.

[HJ-ETEX]

montefrazer's comment indirectly included this, but I will be more specific. Check the flexible fuel link between the frame on the fuel pump. It may be kinked or it may be soft enough to close under high demand draw by the fuel pump.
Concerning the bad internal wires in the distributor - visual appearance is misleading because the problem will most likely be hidden by the insulation. You will need a test light or a multimeter to check resistance of the wire.

[Logan]

Good suggestions.  First of all, for checking the coolant temperature, if the gauge is reading dead center what temperature SHOULD it read, so I know if it's accurate or not?  I'm using Autolite 295 plugs.  The coil is new, so I think it's fine.  Yes, I do need to replace that wire in the distributor, and will do that.  I should have done it the other day, but didn't want to bother.  As for my flexible fuel line, back when I was getting the car running I couldn't find the correct part, so I jimmy-rigged one with some generic rubber fuel line from Autozone, and by the way, I got the line a little long, so it's possible there's a little kink in there.  It's also possible that it is collapsing as HJ-ETEX said.  If so, does anyone know where I can source the correct flexible fuel line?  Also, the shop manual shows how to test fuel pump pressure with a T-fitting and gauge.  I have nothing like this.  Would an autoparts store carry the right stuff?  Thanks for all the suggestions.  Just want to get it back on the road.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Depending on the thermostat (and assuming it is working correctly) the water temp should be in the 160-170 degree F. range...anything over 200 degrees F will start inviting vapor lock under load (such as climbing a steep hill).  You can check the sender without electronic measurement by letting the car idle in your driveway in the warm weather...if the gage moves significantly above the halfway point after 10-15 minutes, your sender is working as it should.  If the car quits and you find the top of the radiator tank hot to the touch, there is a good chance the sender is acting up and should be replaced.

As for the test outlined in the service manual, while the test gage has a Miller Tool Company special item number (they supplied the factory special service tools for K-F, Chrysler Corporation and other car companies) if you take the book into the store and show them what you want (and they can read the text explaination of what the thing is supposed to be doing) they may be able to help you or at least tell you the modern day version of what's needed.

[HJ-ETEX]

Logan & Others. The vapor lock KF people talk about doesn't happen at highway speeds. It happens at low speeds (that's why driving a KF in a parade can be bad news) or when you stop such as at a stop light or turn off the car briefly to go into a store. At highway speeds, you are pumping cool gas from the tank fast enough to cool off the carb. You slow down and the heat from the block and manifold can heat up the fuel in the carb and the line from the pump and vaporize it.
One of the reasons I believe KFs and Studebakers, and just about any late 40's-early 50's car is likely to vapor lock is due to the shape of the front sheet metal. You have high fenders with a dip between them and the middle of the hood. Essentially, you have a dome over the engine that traps hot air. And you thought cutting louvers in the hood was a silly hot rod fad.

[Logan]

Also, I ordered a rebuilt fuel pump (single action) from Rudy about 6 months ago, and I notice that it is leaking oil out of the seam where the top and bottom bolt together.  Could this mean oil is mixing with gas?  By the way, at first I thought it was leaking where the pump bolts to the frame, but it's definitely (I think?) leaking out of the pump itself.  Anyway, I wondered if this meant I should be rebuilding it.

[montefrazer]

"Also, the shop manual shows how to test fuel pump pressure with a T-fitting and gauge.  I have nothing like this.  Would an autoparts store carry the right stuff?"
Vacuum gauges used to have a fuel pump pressure area. I don't know if new ones still do. Another old time test was to disconnect the fuel line at the carb and put a can under it. Then crank the engine and see how well the gas came out. There should be a strong spurt of gas every time the pump cycles.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

On the fuel pump, yes you could have a mix of oil and gas;  have you checked the screws that hold top and bottom together and see if they are all tight?  There have been cases with me where the screws have worked themselves loose from vibration or they were not completely tightened to begin with to relieve pressure on the seals during storage.

[Logan]

Easy enough if that's the fix.  I'll check it out.

[Doc]

Things I have run into:
1. Vapor lock - rerouted the fuel line and added electric pump at the back near the tank.
2. Coil wire
3. Wire down in the distributor that extends from the coil.
4. Intermittent plugging of the pickup tube due to trash or flaking sealant in the gas tank. This has occurred on SEVERAL occassions.
5. Brand new rotor or cap faulty.
6. Faulty plug wire
7. crack in fuel line or fuel hose causing air to be sucked in.

[Logan]

Wow Doc, you either have a lot of experience or bad luck!    Thanks for the tips.

[boatingbill]

Logan: The symptoms you describe are classic (no pun intended) for fuel starvation/vacuum leak. At idle, remove air cleaner and shine flashlight down carb throat. Then operate throttle rod quickly and you should see the accelerator pump squirt a strong stream of gas. Do this 6-7 times to verify pump operation. On a long hill, the carb may run low on gas due to a weak fuel pump or partially blocked fuel filter. You can check this on a level road by running at a high speed for a mile or two of 65 mph to see if you starve for gas. When you gun the accelerator under load with a vacuum leak the engine will flame out or bog depending on how far you pushed the accelerator down. Check at base of carb for vacuum reading on line going to the distributor (vacuum advance hose). When a engine flames out, a person usually guns it (no help) and then will return the pedal toward the idle position at which time the air/ fuel ration moves toward normal and the engine restarts itself. When you said 3 sec on, 3 sec off that was the clue.