Author Topic: Graham Paige Frazer Interest  (Read 5128 times)

Roadmaster49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
    • View Profile
    • Email
Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« on: December 31, 2010, 09:03:55 AM »
Sorry guys. I am sounding like a freshman Newbie with these questions.  :o

I have located an early production Graham Paige Frazer in Minnesota no engine, pretty cheap.  I had a photo set sent to me and it's a straight forward project, not all damaged or rusty.

But with all due respect, it appeared a bit homely. I would prefer a later model BUT also am a preservationist/historian and would collect a car for what it represents. 

Of course, any early project car looks a bit bland.  Are these cars collected and do they look sharp in restored condition? Does anyone own an early GP Frazer that is restored that I can look at?  Thanks.
No old cars owned.

joefrazer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4043
    • View Profile
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2010, 11:52:30 AM »
When Kaiser and Frazer went to production in 1946 (as 47 model cars), the original plan was to share manufacturing facilities but market 2 separate cars, a Kaiser and a Frazer. Graham Paige, a prewar manufacturer was going to stay in business and sell the Frazer as a GP built car. It didn't take long to realize that the best bet at survival was to combine efforts and Kaiser-Frazer was born.

A GP Frazer is a rare beast. Only about 8900 were built before the GP tags were changed over to K-F. Of those, only a small number survive today.

You have a rare car that has parts readily available...and reasonably inexpensive too.

Some will agree with you that the early (47-50 KF cars) are a bit homely, but properly restored they are a beautiful automobile. The thing to remember about a 47K or F is that they were the first car with 'envelope' styling...that is...the fenders were part of the body, not hung on like prewar cars...and most early postwar stuff.

There are several GP Frazers in the club and I'm sure someone will chime in with a picture or two. Aside from the data tags and minor trim, they are essentially the same as the later Frazer built by K-F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 01:56:53 PM by joefrazer »

Fid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3854
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2010, 12:33:10 PM »
I just want to re-interate what was said; there are very few surviving Graham Paige Frazers so restoring one would give you a  unique and rare car.  I live in the Twin Cities and would be happy to help you out with any questions or needs.
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

Need your classic car radio repaired? I repair vacuum tube radios

Gordie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
    • MSN Messenger - gordies1@verizon.net
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Gordie
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2010, 02:27:26 PM »
There were several running changes made to the Graham Paige Frazer's thru production.  The earliest cars had plated outside door handles, no rocker moldings, only two front bumper guards, a grill with no noticeable vertical bars, a squeeze type trunk handle, lettered door scuff plates and lettered hubcaps.  The door scuff plates, grill, knobs, and hubcaps are the hardest items to find.  Later Graham Paige Frazer's were almost like the production K-F Corp. cars other than the round gearshift and turn signal knobs and a different oil pressure guage.  There are several G.P. cars in the club but you seldom see them in shows.  All G.P. cars had blackwall tires so they do look a little bland but that was the original Frazer and they need to be preserved.  The original protype Frazer had a painted grill and many pictures of the painted grill on photos and early sales brochures were circulated but no cars were ever sold with painted grills.  What is the body number of the car you are interested in.  The first few hundred early cars are quite rare.
Member #3151 Since June 1974
Vice President K.F.O.C.I. 2013-2017  President 2018-2019
'47 Graham Paige Frazer                                   
'51 Kaiser Deluxe club coupe       
'51 Kaiser customized convertible 
'52 Allstate serial#39
'53 Aero Eagle
'54 Aero Eagle Custom

kaiserfrazerlibrary

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3005
  • KFOCI Historian
    • AOL Instant Messenger - none
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - none
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2010, 10:19:17 PM »
First off, the section in KFOCI HANDBOOK VERSION 4.0 September 2009 release covering the Graham-Paige Frazers lists the significant running changes in terms of appearance and general upgrade.  Most of the changes occurred at s/n 1474 (the 474th Frazer buiilt). 

If you want to keep the car as original as possible, you will have to find a rebuildable block with fuel pump in the rear rather than up front on the passenger side of the block.  A Kaiser block will not work due to the differences in oil and water senders (type and location on the motor) among other differences.  The later 226 engine (fuel pump on the front area of block, passenger side) is the more common engine.  K-F itself obsoleted the original block as a service part in favor of the later design, along with the various changes in fittings, lines, linkages, etc. 

What is the serial number on the car you are looking at?

Roadmaster49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2011, 02:12:36 PM »
I had requested the numbers off this car at one time, received them via email but have deleted the email because I could not see myself purchasing the car. I try to be considerate of historical significance over visual beauty but I could not see myself sinking untold $$$ into this particular KF.

I did start a similar post on this car on this forum I want to say 18 months ago and received some input. It was definately a GP car. The car can be seen at www.trinketsand junk.com  as well. Will post the link.
No old cars owned.

Roadmaster49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2011, 02:13:39 PM »
Here is the car.

http://www.trinketsandjunk.com/frazer.html

The seller is friendly in general.  The car is offered for $875 but virtually any serious cash offer will get it. Such as $600 cash. I don't understand the need to put 4 bumper guards front and rear.  Seller should have the serial numbers handy but I won't be pursuing this car. Still, interesting to see such a rare vehicle.

It was my understanding, flawed as it may be, that early Continental KF motors had overheating and reliability issues that lead to replacement. 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 02:18:13 PM by Roadmaster49 »
No old cars owned.

Logan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2011, 04:43:24 PM »
I hope someone will want to restore this one, just because it is so rare.  Looks like a project!

Gordie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
    • MSN Messenger - gordies1@verizon.net
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Gordie
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2011, 06:15:44 PM »
From the picture this seems to be a later G.P. car and it is missing the rare hubcaps and has mostly late features so it should not be too hard to restore but it looks like this one needs everything.
Member #3151 Since June 1974
Vice President K.F.O.C.I. 2013-2017  President 2018-2019
'47 Graham Paige Frazer                                   
'51 Kaiser Deluxe club coupe       
'51 Kaiser customized convertible 
'52 Allstate serial#39
'53 Aero Eagle
'54 Aero Eagle Custom

Roadmaster49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 12:24:03 PM »
From the picture this seems to be a later G.P. car and it is missing the rare hubcaps and has mostly late features so it should not be too hard to restore but it looks like this one needs everything.

Gordie
I obviously wish I had not deleted that email where he provided the numbers but I am into a lot of old car topics so sometimes I have to thin out my saved emails and just felt with limited time and money - to pursue a 49 Virginian instead.

I do remember a discussion I started on this forum and I can verify this is a GP car based on the serial numbers but I believe you are correct - not an early early car but still built in Detroit at the old GP plant. (along with snowblowers?)
No old cars owned.

dusty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
    • MSN Messenger - mr_blueberry30@hotmail.com
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 04:25:13 PM »
hi, if you want to stay original Steve Dexter in Grants Pass Oregon has a couple of early g.p. BLOCKS .

kaiserfrazerlibrary

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3005
  • KFOCI Historian
    • AOL Instant Messenger - none
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - none
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Graham Paige Frazer Interest
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 11:06:04 AM »
You can tell from the outside the car is not a Manhattan as there is none of the added brightwork put on the Manhattans.  To be sure however, you would need the info off the car tags.  If the seller will not furnish the information that he or she probably knows the info would identify it as it really is. 

As for the Graham-paige thing.  NO, REPEAT NO Frazer automobiles (including prototypes) were ever built at the old Graham-Paige factory on Warren Avenue...everything was built at Willow Run and this can be proven with company documents.