6 volt to 12 volt, more questions than answers!

[MikeZ]

Among other things I am changing my 51 HJ from standard to overdrive transmission.
The previous owner had converted it to 12 volt.
On the internet I have found information that the existing 6 volt solenoid will work fine with 12 volts.
I have also found info that it positively has to be change to a 12 volt.
I don't currently have a relay so I would like to buy one to match whichever solenoid I get.
Any input would be much appreciated.
Thanks

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

You need to go with the voltage of the electrical system as well as the ground.  6 volt parts in a 12 volt system will burn the part out.  This is not just the solenoid but other components like gauges.

[Jim B PEI]

"SOME" of the parts might have to be replaced, but perhaps not all.  SOME items might be fine, while other OEM parts might be okay as long as there is a voltage reducer to that component. To be on the safe side, consult an expert in overdrive--perhaps on the Studebaker Forums because Studebaker had both 6 and 12 volt systems on the same flathead 185 cid sixes and 259 cid V8s, going from 1955 (6 volt) to 1956 (12 volt) using the same transmissions on both. There is a difficulty with Kaiser and in "true" Packards as they maintained 6 volts to the end--1955 and 1956 respectively. But again, the Studebaker experts can advise, as even the Packard 352 in a 56 Packard was 6 volt for their T85 overdrive equipped versions, while the very same power train in a 1956 Studebaker Golden Hawk was 12 volt.

My 49 Kaiser has had an interesting conversion done by a local car electrical guy. I run the car still on 6 volt for all things, but it has a 12 volt alternator...and two six volt batteries, with an ingenious 6 and 12 volt series and parallel system. 12 Volts to the 6 volt starter, but other than that, everything else is original 6 volts, and can be returned to original too. Good starts in a second or so on the earlier style Kaiser starter which is always an issue due to its less than wonderful design. The Alternator keeps the 6 volt lead acid batteries in better condition than a generator does. I could have gone with a 6 Volt alternator instead, but the idea of turning over the engine faster appealed to me. The batteries are charged in series, but energy is drawn off from a single battery to provide all lights and heater motor power.

[Jim B PEI]

Did some research on the Studebaker Forum---the Solenoid and the Relay are the parts that are sensitive to the change in voltage. I will attempt to find out if a voltage reducer will work in lieu of finding a 12volt version of those two items that will fit your K.

[Corsairdeluxe]

From my experience. Get a 12 vold solenoid that is the same length as the 6 volt one you have. Swap out the plunger. They can differ quite a bit in the shape of the end of the plunger.A dpdt 12volt ,20 amp relay is a vailable on ebay for abt. $10.00. This worked fine for me. If you use the 6 volt starter, use a smaller lead to the battery . It will not affect anything else but will take some of the jolt off the starter. $3 a piece for diodes to adapt the gauges.I know people who have excellent servive from the 6 volt system. I am not one of themm. I have had  considerable problems with starting hot Henry J engines. When I went to 12 Volts...none.

[Jim B PEI]

The reply by CorsairDeluxe covers this well, about what you can do if you change to 12V, to make it work with the Kaiser "designed for 6V" system. Here is a reply from a very knowledgeable Studebaker and other makes guy Gord Richmond--one of those real 'go to' people. So, a voltage reducer just won't work on a 6V solenoid if you change to 12V

"Jim, this comes up again and again. The problem with the overdrive solenoid is that it has two modes of operation, pull-in, and hold-in. The pull-in coil is wound with relatively few turns of heavy wire, and sucks a lot of juice for the brief period of time that it is working to draw the slug through the bore of the solenoid. Once the slug slams home, overdrive is engaged, and a disc on the slug hits a contact leaf and opens the circuit to the pull-in coil, leaving the hold-in coil, which is wound with many turns of finer wire, still energized.

At a guess, the solenoid might draw 20 amps for the half-second or so that it takes to pull in, and 5 amps for as long as it remains engaged. I have never measured it. A voltage dropping resistor that is sized right for the hold-in coil won't pass enough juice for the pull-in coil, and conversely, one that is sized right for the pull-in coil would pass too much juice for the hold-in coil, and it might eventually overheat and burn out.

What you would need is a solid-state regulated voltage reducer, with enough capacity to supply the 20 (or whatever) amps required by the pull-in coil. This would likely cost more than simply buying a 12-volt solenoid.

If you were really determined to do things the hard way, you could open up the solenoid, find an end of each winding, detach it from its terminal, snake a lead through a hole in the case, and equip each winding with its own independent voltage-dropping resistor. (and then snake the other lead from each resistor back into the case and solder it to the appropriate terminal) "

[Fid]

When it comes to electrical components, what is important is the current (amps) as opposed to the voltage. My dad converted a 1953 Henry J to 12v back in 1967. He left the original OD components (solenoid, relay) intact and drove the car for 7  years, on the highway a lot and all around town with no problems.  I've seen NOS Delco OD solenoids and listed on the box are "1949 - 58 Ford..." and the like which means it would have covered the period where they changed from 6 volt systems to 12 volt. The solenoid is fused at 20 amps and as long as that fuse doesn't blow, it should work fine on 6 or 12 volt systems.

[Corsairdeluxe]

I do not take exception to anybodys personal experience. In my own,double the voltage is equal to double the current and the resultant heat is way outside the design's anticipated ability to dissipate.Faint heart never won fair maid and more power to experimentation.
My last J had a 60 amp ,6 volt alternator and an Optima battery with an undersized pulley. It was flawless and absoutly perfect.Of course I did not have to worry with any problems with the OD or acessoeies. It is the only way to fly for me in the future.

[Fid]

You are correct Jim, double the voltage will double the current and double the heat.  But, if the construction of the component can handle it, it will work. Probably the best advice is, if you can get a 12 volt solenoid, do so but I do know the one we had worked fine and did not cause problems.

[MikeZ]

Thanks for all your help and comments.

I am in the process of locating a 12 volt solenoid and relay.
There is a place http://www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com/parts/parts_counter_3.html that sells both but they are out of stock. They say they will have more available in about 3 weeks.
I am also working with Northwest Transmission. They say they can rewind my solenoid to 12 volt for a fair price. They also say they have a source for a 12 volt relay to match.

I am currently using the horn that came with the car, I assume an original 6 volt horn. I bought a voltage reducer but the horn wouldn't blow with it installed. Not enough amps, I think. The horn that came with the car works with 12 volt. Even if it's 6 volt, I don't think it will burn up because you don't usually blow a horn for that long.

All the other 6 volt to 12 volt issues have been addressed.

[Terry T]

Why not change the tranny to 6 volt?
This would defuse all the other issues.
Unless you intend to drive in the dead of winter, 6 volts should work just fine.

[Jim B PEI]

The car has been previously converted to 12V operation, and only now is he thinking of adding an overdrive. See my previous answer (which was a quoted response from a mechanical savant, Gord Richmond) which confirms that "in practice" that you cannot step down 12Volts to 6V to successfully operate a 6 Volt solenoid, unless you go somehow to a complicated solid-state stepper, as the solenoid has a dual function at different values, and a step down would work on one side, or the other, but not both

[Terry T]

Thanks for clarification--thought that just the trans had been converted.