Author Topic: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?  (Read 7702 times)

Fid

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2012, 10:18:19 PM »
There's something about modern sparkplugs that causes problems with them. I've had the symptom you describe twice and both times, a new set of plugs fixed it. I had the car really flooded once, left the plugs out in the sun to dry all day - no start. Put in a new set and took right off. Very strange. And when I did the spark test, of course it had spark but I checked it at the wire by arcing the wire agains the head bolt. A better test would be to remove the plug and ground the plug end and run the starter and see if there is actually spark at the plug itself.  It may be worth a try.
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mbflemingkf

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2012, 10:54:20 PM »
Jim & Lowell...these are both good ideas and I'll try them tomorrrow.  I've put a solid 8 hors in this already...very frustrating and discouraging.  First time in the 4 years I've owned the car that I can't get it to start.  I'm not even pumping the gas but I'm smelling gas like crazy.  WTH?

 :(
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boatingbill

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2012, 11:53:38 PM »
mbflemingkf: If somehow you have flooded the engine, the gas washing down the cylinder walls
causes loss of compression and the car won't start. Friends of mine have done this in the past
and the only way to get the engine started was to push it for several city blocks. Carb problems
can also cause flooding. I have had a car run fine and then I shut it off and several days later it would
not start and smelled strongly of gas. I took the top of the carb off and the fuel bowl was dry! If you
push start it and several days later this problem reoccurs, the carb is the the cause.

joefrazer

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2012, 08:02:55 AM »
I think the car is seriously flooded. Remove the lugs and leave them out for a day. If you have an air compressor, blow some air down each plug hole to help dry things out a bit. Replace the plugs with new, then try again.

If you're seeing alot of fuel in the carb box, it's either due to loose mount bolts...happened to me on my 54...or the throttle rod bushings are worn, and that's allowing fuel to leak into the box.

Barnum

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2012, 09:39:28 AM »
I had a similar problem with my 54  ....in my case I needed fresh plugs....and make shure the choke is fully closed, if it isn't the car just floods out
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stroker70

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2012, 03:09:56 PM »
Mike, spring for a set of new spark plugs and see what happens. I gas fouled my Dragons plugs early on and the only way I could start it was to squirt some engine oil in each cylinder spin it over a few times then install the new plugs. Wella! it started.

Chris

mbflemingkf

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2012, 09:30:05 PM »
UPDATE!!!   No...no luck!  Will not start.  Replaced condenser, coil, and left plug holes open for 24 hours.  Bought new spark plugs today and put them in...no change.  I think I've tried everything except the suggestion of pushing the car for a few blocks which will not happen.  Arrrrrggggggg....gotta be something simple!  Still open to suggestions. 

How can a car that ran so well and never had a starting problem go south for no apparent reason?!

 :'(

Mike
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 10:01:32 PM by mbflemingkf »
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Fid

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2012, 09:46:48 PM »
Just some input Mike - the two low cylinders will not cause it to not start.  Is it possible the timing is off?  That would probably happen only if you were messing with it though but you never know. It would have to be off quite a bit to make it not start or fire but I have seen that. How much corrosion is inside the distributor cap? In the main hole/socket where the coil plugs in check it and see if it's making good contact.  Also, it sounds like you been there, but if the point gap is off, it will throw the timing off but probably not enough to make it not start.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 10:11:20 AM by Fid »
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Lee Crump

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2012, 10:54:21 PM »
If you thoroughly flooded it you may have washed down the cylinder walls and lost compression.  When I let my Kaiser set for a couple of years an old mechanic had me put a little oil into each cylinder.  It worked but it smoked until the oil burned out.

Lee
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Orphanauto

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2012, 11:10:15 PM »
Hey Mike, I just remembered I had this problem with my 47 Studebaker Champion Bus coupe years ago, When I took the distributer cap off and spun the motor, the distributer was NOT turning, the problem was the gear on the distributer shaft. I am NOT a mechanic, just a old car nut and do what litttle basic stuff I can, So, I don't know if the Kaiser mmotor is set up the same way, but, if it is, may be worth a check, I really hope it is something more simple. Best of luck.
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superk226

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2012, 12:45:52 AM »
If the distributor is installed so that it is 180 degrees out of time it will not start. Also the distributor rotor turns counter clock wise, if you have installed the wires starting with number one clock wise it will not start. If you cannot get it started with the starter, I think you are wasting your time trying to start it by pulling it.

kaiserfrazerlibrary

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2012, 06:23:40 AM »
Summary check list

1.  Start with distributor cap off.  Does distributor rotor turn?  If not gear or other part connecting distributor are out (gears can jam or break on a 50+ year old anything).  If it does turn, does it turn in the right direction?

2. NEW ITEM NOT PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED.  Have you checked the small piece of braided wire on the distributor plate?  Corrosion and normal engine vibration will break the wire at one (or both) of the connection points or inside the insullation.  It looks normal but no electricity gets through.  If wire has not been replaced, recommend you do so on general principles.

3. NEW ITEM NOT PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED:  If the distributor is Delco-Remy, check for the stiffness of the bent contact on the rotor.  High voltage cannot jump the distance if (as happens over time) the bent contact is worn due to age and does not stay up to contact the piece on the bottom of the cap.  If distributor is Auto-Lite, check to see if the spring on the contact in the cap still "bounces"  over time these will rust and corrode freezing the contact in place.  As it touches the rotor it will wear and if the spring cannot let it drop, again high voltage cannot jump the distance.  If in doubt, replace cap with a good new one.

4.  Check points and condenser for proper operation.  If they have not been replaced in the last 4 years, they should be replaced on general principles.   Make sure points are properly gapped.  Be sure to check the contact point where the points hit the rotor to open and close.  Plastic contacts in particular will wear to the point where the rotor no longer hits and points do not work.

5.  Check coil and verify it is properly connected (correct ground) and that you get spark to distributor.

6.  REMEMBER THAT WITH TODAY'S GASOLINES, YOUR FUEL SYSTEM ROTS OUT IN ONLY A FEW YEARS!  ALL PLASTIC OR NEOPREME SEALS AND COMPONENTS IN THE CARB AND RUBBER FUEL LINES ROT OUT UNLESS MADE TO PROPER SAE SPECIFICATIONS.  If you have not had major fuel system components and fuel lines checked/replaced in the last 4 years, they should be checked for fuel-related damage (your EPA at work changing gas formulas almost annually to the point where late model vehicles are suffering as well).

7.  If spark plugs are suspected, have them checked at a garage; replace with heat range type A-5 plugs and adjust timing based on 1951 Kaiser-Frazer Shop Manual settings.  Helps reduce engine operating temperature which helps deflect vapor lock a bit.

8.  Check timing chain for proper operation and tightness.  Chains will stretch a bit over time, causing the engine to not hold timing.

9.  If the car has at least 9,000 miles on it since last valve adjustment, adjust valves as needed. 

10.  Pull head to check condition of valve heads and seats;  you are looking for valves that appear burnt or otherwise not seating properly.  Prolounged use of unleaded gasoline without hardened valves and valve seats will cause valve seat recession and improper seating of valves. 

5. 

boatingbill

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2012, 03:20:20 PM »
mbflemingkf: The 226 engine starting/running problem comes down to two issues: is it electrical/mechanical or fuel/mechanical? Pull cap off and turn over the motor to see if rotor turns.
You said you have spark at the points, so pull the coil wire out of the cap and have someone
hold the metal end 3/16 above the block. With key "on", open and close points to see if coil wire
arcs to the head with a blue spark. If it arcs put everything back together. If timing chain hasn't
jumped dramatically, engine should attempt to fire up. Your clue was gas smell, but you do not want to push start you car (an old pair of tires will protect bumpers if that is your worry) so spray a shot of wd40 into each spark hole and turn motor over several times with plugs out. Then put plugs in and try to start, but do not pump gas pedal! I use a old Windex bottle with gas in it and give one spray into carb throat. If you crank over for 10-15 sec and engine tries to fire, give only one more squirt and try again. If it tries again to fire and does not start, you may have to push it to restore compression. It sounds like your carb is flooding engine when it sits. This is not uncommon. If you get her started, and you again smell gas an hour or two after shutting motor off
then pull carb off, make sure fuel bowl is full and let sit for a day or two. If carb leaks or goes dry,
you found the culprit.

mbflemingkf

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2012, 08:39:55 PM »
WOW!  Some good new ideas I haven't tried.  Got a buddy coming over Thursday night that more mechanical then me...we'll try some of these!!!  Hopefully some good news on Friday!   ;)

Thanks, guys...Mike

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mbflemingkf

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Re: Compression, head gaskets, etc.?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2012, 01:14:00 PM »
Finally...VICTORY!!!!  Reba is running!  After replacing pretty much all of the electrical components, I think it really came down to the fact that "the engine was seriously flooded" (in the words of our wise Club VP Jim Lape).  Several others of you suggested this may be the problem too including boatingbill.

We found the electric fuel pump switch was flipped to the "on" position and likely was when I did the compression check.  I didn't even hear the GD thing but my buddy said "what's the humming sound?" (he's younger than me and has better hearing)!!

Guys, thanks for all the helpful suggestions along the way.  I did get to learn my ignition system better so at least the frustration had some benefit!

Now to pulling the head and see what we have going on there over and above a blown gasket!

Doc, I really feel for the problems you had trying to get your 51F engine to run.  My problems were minor compared to yours.  Good luck on the other car. 

Stay tuned.

Mike  :)
KFOCI #4818, Since 1982

Rear view mirror:
1954 Kaiser Manhattan, 4 Door (Now in FL)
1955 Kaiser Manhattan, 2 Door (Now in TX)
1953 Kaiser Manhattan, 4 Door (Now in Australia)
Thousands of parts & literature (All over the world)