Judging - Post 2010 National

[Jim B PEI]

Hear! Hear! Hear! It almost sounds like it is time for the Club Members to take back their club.

Jack, you have done an absolutely fantastic "job". Job in quotation marks, because people normally get paid for work, and/or get bonuses for superlative work. Lets call it a 'life's work'. Thank you for sharing your research, time, and effort with everyone.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

I grew up in and around the automobile industry and saw boxes of factory materials destroyed each year because they were considered "surplus" and in general not worth keeping.  When I got saddled with editing the QUARTERLY in 1976 and found nobody wanted to send in anything to be used, I began building up materials as filler as well as items pertaining to cars I owned or planned on someday owning. 

I never kept track as to how much I spent for all this ...had it put the money in the bank I probably would have enough today to buy a really nice HJ and a Willys station wagon.  However, I figured that there would be a fairly good collection of factory materials that could be used for future reference long after I'm gone.  I just need to find a good, safe home for it (FORGET IT, AACA LIBRARY!) when I'm gone.

PS;  I am bringing a truckload of stuff (2000 Ford Ranget XLT short box truck) for the Hospitality Room at the 2010 Midwest division meet so people have things to read through.  It may be the last time this amount of my material will be out and about.

[Gordie]

Jack,  It was at one time kind of a mystery what was stored by the Club at the AACA Museum.  I believe that that collection has been retrieved by the Club but who now has it and what was in it?  Anything significant?  Does this collection belong to the Club and do members have access to it?   How do we volunteer to work on the judging guidelines?  I would like to offer to help on the Graham Paige Frazer and '51 Kaiser Deluxe and I am sure that there are others who would like to help.  Let's all jump in and help to get this major project finished and to the members.

[jsgmpeek]

Gents,
I too will volunteer to work on judging standards for 53-54 Kaiser Manhattans.  Although I do not have a collection of data, just cars that came from the factory (i think?).  I know that when I did my restoration I did not use factory hardware for many of the screws, nuts, and bolts and other attaching hardware, I just used NAPA or other commercial hardware that in the strictest sense would be a no no but I wanted a reliable driver and do not have the funds to be strictly original factory production.  Maybe we need to consider different classes for judging; i.e. preservation, restoration, daily driver, and modified?  What ever we do we need to accommodate as many Kaiser/Frazer etal, owners as possible, including the younger generation for if not, soon there will be no-one in the club! John

[HJ-ETEX]

You know Terry, the largest turn out of Darrins at any National Meet was at the Nashville National (28 is the number I believe). Art Griffin brought his drag raced Darrin and I commented on the "Z-ed" section on the rear of the frame thinking that was part of the drag race modification. Art set me straight that was correct. I had not seen a bare Darrin chassis at that time and it cemented my opinion that most Darrin owners have no idea of what the car looks like under the body. 
Basically, I believe most Darrin owners will not bring out their car unless they expect to win the grand prize. That is unfortunate because a Club isn't entirely or even predominately about winning prizes. It is about learning about your car or teaching some one who may not know as much as you do.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

I refer any inquiries about stuff the club was SUPPOSED TO OWN to the KFOCI President.  For more than a year I have wanted the club to formally request an explaination from the AACA regarding Mr. Moskowitz's comment (he is or at least was AACA President at the time) that while the KFOCI paid money to the AACA for housing a collection and that an agreement was signed, "it was never consumated" (Mr. Moskowitz's words) therefore there was never any material in the AACA Library belonging to the club and any materials donated to the AACA Library was considered the property of the AACA Library.

[Gordie]

Who authorized the AACA to store K-F Club material.  Was it a doner or an officer of the club?  Who signed the agreement?  It seems that they should follow thru to get it returned especially if KFOC paid to have this stuff stored.  Just curious!

[HJ-ETEX]

Jack, Gordie: You need to ask Randy Rutherford, NOT the current President, to explain the details of the initiative where by KF materials were to be stored with the AACA Library. The Club did NOT own these materials.

[Terry T]

In his Spring 2009 Darrin Newsletter/Roster, Dave Antram stated that he made a donation of funds from the Darrin Roster to the AACA Library.  These funds are to be used "to buy archival preservation materials"..."as a result, past Darrin Rosters, newsletters, photos, etc. will now have a safe and secure place to exist for all future admirers of our cars to easily reference them". 

In the same Newsletter he stated that the "offical KF factory photographer, Russ Spalding has kindly begun to donate much of his personal vast collection of original photographs, blueprints and documents from his career to the library".

[Gordie]

Thanks guys, Randy is usually at Hershey so I will try to talk to him.  I will be there in a month for the Hershey swap meet and it would be great to see what is now in the AACA Library re: Kaiser-Frazer.  There may be some surprises.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Ok, here goes...both barrels!

Randy Rutherford proposed an item to the board of directors where the club would pay the AACA Library $500.00 per year for the "storage and conservation of a KFOCI Club Archive".  I first got word of this 2 days before the Business Meeting of the club that year, and asked for more information as I had been told since I became Club Historian that there IS AND NEVER WAS A CLUB OWNED ARCHIVE OF MATERIALS!

Randy, if memory serves correct paid the first year's cost out of his own pocket and the club members at the Business Meeting or the Board of Directors on their own (this point was never made clear to me and since minutes of Business Meetings are rarely if ever released to the membership-a possible violation of club policies) approved and the then President of the club signed off on the agreement with the AACA.  The AACA agrees that such an agreement was entered into, signed by both parties, and that monies were paid for 2 years (the second year paid by the club).

The deal--as Randy Rutherford presented it to the club--was that items donated to the KFOCI collection at the library would get a tax release from the AACA (which is a 501c3 corp and can legally do this) and then pass the materials on to the collection.  Not long after the stuff was signed off, a former K-F employee who is also a club member in Colorado donated his personal factory collection to the AACA LIBRARY.  Randy worked on him to actually donate to the AACA, not the KFOCI (Randy told the person that the KFOCI fought too much about things so nothing should go to the club...that's the donors own statement). 

I spoke to Mike Knittle about the situation and he said he was going to look into it.  That's why contact Mike.

[Gordie]

Well, it seems like if we ever want to have a Kaiser-Frazer archive collection we will have to go to the AACA Library to view it.  There are several major literature collections in the US and the material is well preserved and available for viewing.  The AACA is one as well as the Henry Ford Museum, The Detroit Public Library and the Philadelphia Free Library.  I have done research at all but the Philadelphia Library and their collections are overwhelming.  It is great that this valuable material is being saved.  It is not too hard to make up a collection of most of the sales literature offered by Kaiser Frazer but private collections amassed by employees and officers of the Company are priceless and unique and it is wonderful that it will be donated somewhere and will be available for viewing.  If you want to view almost every piece of sales literature ever printed by K-F go to Ben Walkers fine site where it is all illustrated.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Be advised that I was informed by the AACA there is a 25.00 charge just to find out if they have anything.  Visitors are NOT allowed to handle any materials in their collections (I can see some reason behind this, especially on really old stuff) but they will make copies for you at a "nominal fee". 

Similar policies are also posted on the AACA website for the library.

[blackcat429cj]

As many of you know, I have been a proponent of standards for the Darrin for years, even before I got the job as Registry Manager  I was laughed off the stage in Chicago, and..well I won't go into what happened in Texas.  I have worked many many hours on the phone, talking to owners of unrestored cars to determine how they were built.  I have driven as long as 4 hours to review an original car.  I have had very heated discussions with many who have claimed to know what is correct for the Darrin based upon "experts" who judge them.  Additionally, I personally invited the original unrestored car to the Texas Convention so that others could see this gem!  Finally, I have been trying to determine breakpoints for certain items that had changed throughout the Darrin builds.  This hasn't been very successful.  I published "proposed standards" in my Newsletters, asking for comments.  I have received 4, as in FOUR, comments in the past 2 years.  Nonetheless, I have made the document available to Officers of the Club.  I too am very frustrated that these efforts have gone nowhere.  At least my list can be used by those who want to restore their cars to the way they were built--based upon data, not heresay.

Terry, 


There is The biggest problem with "standards" is that  when you start making statements that are "always" and "never"  about a car you you are often wrong.

Certain standards can be established with certaintly - i.e. the cars had a fiberglass body.  If a car showed up with an aluminum body and a 350 Chevy V8 one would know something was not right. But there are several points of contention with Darrins, that few will ever agree on.

 A case in point, we met at the at Iola last year and had a nice conversation and a discussion about my car.  I have owned my car, #173 since 1987, when I purchased the car it had just turned over 20,000 miles and was still unrestored.  John Haller, the previous owner had the car since 1963 with just 12,000 miles. 

My point is that  my car has door handles that point to the rear,  even in pictures that John had of the car - going back to the early 60's showed the car with rear pointing door handles,  you questioned me on the fact.    My point being that in the last darrin Newsletter, finally a service bulletin showing that rear pointing door handles are valid,  surfaced.

 Prior to that bulletin surfacing rear pointing door handles would have been judged "incorrectly" that the car was wrong.

My car has always had the stainless steel gas cap - did the original owner loose the painted one?  Or was the plant out of yellow caps and did they need to finish the car and get it out the door to get the car shipped.  Believe me - the factory would not hesitate to put a stainless steel cap on the car so it could be loaded on a truck and sent to the door.  So int that case what would be correct how the car was built, or the "standard"

Another possibility is the case of dealer installed options?

There are also the questions about running production changes.  Etc, 

Mitch

P.S.  I may not be able to document that my car had a black airsoop,  but I think it looks much better with a black scoop vs a yellow one.

[Gordie]

These variations in our cars are one of the things that makes judging so difficult and there are plenty of them.  Keep that documentation handy!  I have diferences in some of my original cars but I will take a deduction rather than add something that was not original to my car until I can find documentation.