More on judging cars at the National

[Dragon]

I do believe the club needs standards to keep members knowledgeable on their cars, but because of all the arguing and incorrect judging I will not have my car judged anymore.  I do not care about trophies anyway but I do want to increase my knowledge of correctness. 

[Terry T]

There are many unrestored  cars out there.
My Darrin was one, properly documented, then restored.
My Henry J was another, now slightly modified.

Single owner cars are rare, but out there.

One such Darrin showed up at the National in TX several years ago.

I believe that it was the hit of the meet.

[DTort96646]

I'll add my 2 cents to the discussion.  Is that unrestored vehicle one that has been in the garage for the past 50 or 60 years and not operated or worked on since it left the dealership, or has it been used and maintained to be driven? If it has been worked on to be driven, I'll argue that the replacement parts and/ or workmanship is incorrect and not factory. Factory documentation, and an original vehicle to back up the factory documentation should really be the only standard to determine "correctness". That being said, because in reality that ain't happening, a set of standards as close as possible should be adopted and stuck to. If the standards already exist, then how, some 65 years or so later, can you change the standard based on a vehicle that has been repaired or fixed with parts to "make do", or by someone that is less than 80 years old that never worked on an original vehicle. Personally, I think unless the vehicle is in a museum or static collection, the correctness is not as important as the safety and esthetics are. If you folks are driving and enjoying your vehicles, who cares how exactly 100% correct the vehicle is. If it's close to correct and is within the already established standards for judging, keep the standards as they are and publish a guide so everyone knows what to expect. I know some folks will argue about this, but this is a hobby to have fun and enjoy. Let's not get our socks in a bunch over trivia.

[joefrazer]

The AACA has a class called HPOF, Historical Preservation of Original Features. This means the vehicle must exhibit the features it was "born" with. The AACA will allow a repaint, for example, but will deduct points for it. Items like incorrect hose clamps, headlight bulbs, seat covers, etc, will also cause point deductions.

As our cars age, it becomes less likely that a totally original KF product exists. I'm sure there are a few...one such purported car will be sold at auction next weekend here in Ohio. If we were to introduce a class in our judging system for HPOF cars, we would need decide what constitutes originality. Replacing normal wear items shouldn't disqualify a car from an award, but points should be deducted if the replacement items are not of original appearance or construction.

Judging always opens a can of worms. Everyone has an opinion and rarely do two agree. So, the best we can do is build documentation to support the judging rules and then let the cars meet them. If its found that a rule cannot be met, then the judging team will do what's needed to determine why it cannot be met. For example, if a rule states a certain spark plug must be used but the plugs are no longer available, then an alternate plug may be allowed - but that must be documented.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

There could be a serious interest in having a "under restoration" or similar type class for judging.  Cars in this category need only be operational with running motor, brakes, etc.  Any restoration work done would be judged on the basis of a finished car AS A GUIDE ONLY to the car owner.  The judges would also talk to the owner of the vehicle.  How much research has the owner done on their car?  Do they know the general history of the car (how many were built, significant features, etc, NOT who owned it when type stuff).  Also, what are the owner's plans for completing the work.    The award given is different from the gold-silver-bronze of restored or original cars.  What form the award given is the part I am having trouble with.

Over the years I have found many people--myself included--who did not bring a car to a KFOCI function because what I had at the time was not restored.  Then, I got smart.  I brought the car to events (KFOCI or general) and showed it as a work in process.  I identified the work done, the plan for completing the restoration and general history of the car (when built, equipment when new, etc).  People talked to me about where to get parts for a Frazer or a Kaiser, who could do work on the cars, and so forth.  I have no idea if any of those folks were only tire kickers or if they ended up joining the club but I felt better about what I had and could justify taking it out.

What do others think. 

[joefrazer]

For many years the Mericles awarded the "Cracked KF Plaque" at the Seaway region meet. While tongue in cheek, its intent was to showcase a car brought to the meet that was in the worst condition, but with the best intention of restoring it. For a while, the award was quite an honor and yours truly won it by driving some real messes to the meet.

I think it would be a great idea to resurrect the plaque (I have located it) and award it at the national meet. Of course, potential recipients would have to be good natured and understand the intent of the plaque - to interject a bit of levity into what can be a contentious affair. On the other hand, awarding someone the plaque may be all they need to kick start a restoration!

While a nicely restored car gets its share of attention, an original car that's seen better days always gets more!

[Aeroman]

Okay, I've been following this discussion for quite some time now. To summarize (so we can stop talking about getting it and actually get it done):

1. Written judging standards are needed.
2. The standards need to be documented by factory literature and photos.
3. A format needs be created for "the book of standards."
4. Judging is optional.
5. Judging is a tool for improving one's vehicle's authenticity.

So, when can I get a copy of the format so I can begin work on the Willys Aero judging standards? I've been waiting several years now.

[pnw_oldmags]

Several years ago, it was attempted by several of us to create a format for these Judging / Restoration Manuals.  The first 75% was easy.  Organizing it around the KFOCI Judging form and describing to the best of your ability how it should be.  Shocks should be black. 

Once you start getting year/model specific the manuals gets ugly.  Do remember that some classes have a dozen different models.  The Willy Class  --- whow.  And don't forget some models have variations within a given year.  The manuals get very hard to use on car when the manual says things like: In this year it should be like this, but if your model number is this then this stainless trim should be narrow and your mirror should have a night flip or not.  The exceptions and variations seemed endless.

My conclusion was that an online database that would display features and characteristics for the select year/model was the only answer. As making 100+ manuals is not practical.  From my perspective this is the only solution.  The exceptions / whatabouts will drive you nuts otherwise. 

There is another problem ... Are you restoring to how did the vehicle leave the factory or the dealer?   If it is factory - you best remove most of those radios.  Dealers seem to have done lots of creative things to sell Kaisers.  Special paint, last year's radio, Manhattan hub caps on lesser model.

Anyway words like "always", "must have" can not be used.    So Restoration Guidelines maybe but never expect a document that will not be challenged by someone - just because a KF document says so -- does not make it so.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

One of the problems people had with judging is that they went overboard.  If you check Confidential Bulletins you will find that various years, makes, series and body types could have been ordered from the factory with heater/defroster, radio and other options factory installed on all cars.  Other cars, if delivered at the factory were equipped with all the required dealer-installed accessories before the car was delivered.

Clean house, start from scratch and put the information together.  I wish the person doing this all the luck in the world (sincerely) because I tried at least 4 times in the last 10 years to get the project going and got no support from the member-elected Board of Directors so someone else can bang their head against the wall.

[Gordie]

The time is now.  The members want it as well as car owners and the directors and officers of the club.  Jack has indeed been knocked down many times in the past but much work has been done and hopefully everyone will pitch in to make this happen.  It has to be done in such a way that the judges can pick up the guidelines and start using them in a user friendly manner.  Major items such as paint condition, tire sizes and types, headlight types, chrome condition, wiper blades, and other topics work for all of the cars and can be listed separately. We need photos of new cars in each body style showing correct features such as wheel covers and accessories when possible or maybe a separate accessory section showing which year accessories are correct for what year Kaiser or Frazer.  Some accessories carried thru for many years such as the tail pipe extention and plastic white walls.  I have a collection of approximately 400 factory photos of our cars and I would be happy to loan them for this purpose.  Lets get it started!

[pnw_oldmags]

Here is a PDF of the Henry J Class that was being developed prior to the San Diego National.  This document has several years of work in it and probably would require several more years to make it close to complete.  It is a 2MB Pdf so do have a good internet connection before opening.

http://circlekf.com/restorationguidelines/class04_henryj/cls04.pdf

Browse through it and you should see the difficulty picking out one model from the 14 models it covers.

From a restoration perspective it seems an application that would allow an owner to enter their model number info and have only that model come up is the only way to go.

From a Judging perspective -  Maybe a Tablet Computer application the judge takes to the field to access that same database and display JUST information for the model being judged. 

Oh did I mention to gather the information ... maybe 2 or 3 volunteers for each class.  All volunteers with thick enough skin to take the nay sayers sharp tongues and then we have the "what about professionals" in our group.

Not trying to be negative just realistic.

I am a bit discouraged as I have some A HOLE hacking my CIRCLEKF website deleting information.  Their last brilliant session they removed about 60 of the 100 user profiles you nice people have entered.  Now I have to waste a month coding more security instead of concentrating on adding content to share with everyone.

Travel On, Jim

[Gordie]

Wow!  A great job with obviously lots of work and research involved.  With a quick two hour reading the only changes I would make is to give the correct white wall tire width with no guesses and no + or - guesswork as the present judging sheet uses and to fill in the missing photos that you need and to eliminate the list of known literature sources from the guidelines but to have them as research material if needed.  Very Impressive!

[pnw_oldmags]

This was handed over to the those in control at the San Diego Natl with several other Classes with virtually no feedback. 
When were you elected VP?? 

I know it is not perfect but feedback like what you just gave is what is needed to make it better.

Should the document be for judges or restorers?  If it is both seems Literature sources belong in here.

Great example with White wall width... Do you use factory photos as the source or do you know of a KF Source in writing that states what is "correct"?

[Gordie]

Hi Jim,  I am just one opinion but I feel that the judging guidelines need to be just like what you have made up but the judging sheets need to be streamlined down to the important facts needed for judging the cars accurately.  Jack also presented great guidelines to the board of directors and the chief judge and got no support either.  It is obvious that we certainly have the talent, resources and need for these new guidelines and while everyone is receptive to doing it I will do all I can to get them implemented.  They will probably be a work in progress for a while but together we can get most of the missing answers and have guidelines that we can all be proud of and they will be accurate.  The judging sheets need to be very user friendly right from the start so that all of us can understand them.  They should make it very easy for anyone with interest to be a judge as they will have all of the pertinent facts about the car they are judging in their hand.  This should make our judging consistent and accurate.   In answer to your question I have been Vice President since 2013 but have been trying to get judging guidelines implemented for many years.  Now it is going to happen.

[DTort96646]

It's nice to see that there are so many perfect or near perfect vehicles that have to be judged at the divisional or national meets. When do the correct screw heads and bolt markings come into play, or how many stitches on that upholstery are correct? Isn't there a current set of standards being used now? With an average of 40 or so vehicles at a national meet that are judged, I think ( my opinion now) is that a stricter or more complicated judging standard is not required. If there are 2, 1954 blue Kaiser Manhattan 4 door sedans that are being judged it shouldn't be very hard to determine which one would earn a higher score. And if not,  then both should be equally scored. I have not heard of too many club members spending 70K or more to restore their car, mainly because we are doing it ourselves and are suppose to be enjoying it. Kaiser Frazer vehicles don't bring much money when sold, and again my point about judging standards for us, is let's not take ourselves too seriously. If the standards are there, basic standards that would apply to all the vehicles in general, publish a list and let us go crazy. When there gets to be too many great cars being shown, then the standards can get more specific and complicated. Some  one posted earlier wondering if an owner would not bring their Kaiser or Frazer to a meet because it was not "show ready". I don't see a need for KFOCI to be like the AACA when it comes to judging rules. It's easier for everyone including the judges if the standards are kept to a minimum.