To judge our cars or not.

[joefrazer]

Yes, and the standards should be documented on the club’s website and not that of a member (this is not a slight to Jim). If they are a “work in progress” then don’t publish them anywhere until they’re far enough along to be of value.

[Bulletin Editor]

What happens if no cars show up?

This was a HOA meet in 2016...

I was picking up a car part and join them for the day..

Jake, obviously if no cars show up there can't be judging ... but the HOA meet you reference was a region meet - not the National.

As stated before, Divisions/Regions can determine whether or not to have judging but until such time as a proposal to amend the club By-Laws to eliminate judging is approved by the membership, it is mandatory at the National.

[njpatera]

so....does the proposal and voting only take place at the National meet?

[Gordie]

Yes, but we would like to have your opinion right here in the forum.  If no one responds with opinions the vote at the National meet will determine the future of judging.  I hope that we can continue it but only if the cars are not modified.  Modified cars are very welcome but we should not be judging them along side original cars.  Modified cars should get a participation award for attending.

[njpatera]

Thank you for that clarification. Looking back over the thread and the modified section, it seems there are a number of suggestions already. We all know the OEM cars are getting few and far between. Why not reach out to the other clubs to see what they are doing so you don't have to recreate the wheel? I believe someone mentioned what one was doing already(cannot remember if it was the Studebaker group or not). But I also agree the standards need to be added to the Official site and not another site. (again, not a slight to Mr. Betts as he established an invaluable source I explore frequently as well as the FB groups).

[darrin502]

I agree with Gordie because if you modify a car there is no way to judge it except for presentation, so a points judging will not work. Modified cars which I have a few should be welcome and encouraged to become members. We are all gear heads and appreciate all cars and are fascinated by what people do to them.
Lee

[Dragon]

I have found from past experience that if the Standards are not approved by club or chief judge, you will get judged different by different judges.  That's why they have to be documented by club.

[MarkH]

The judging guidelines are presently available on Jim Betts website circlekf.com.  Hopefully a committee can be formed to prepare them for use in judging and restoring our cars.  We can not continue to judge the cars based on opinion or memories...…………...

Jim Betts site is a marvel of valuable info but if there's an "official" standard it should also be posted on the club site, especially so after an eye opening conversation I had with an "expert" while looking for a rare option specifically listed in the parts book for my car.

I'm against mandatory judging but allowing optional entry to be judged at the meets is a good thing for those interested in participating.

I also agree modifieds should be welcome. Even modifieds could be judged in their own class (if desired) for mechanical neatness, paint and interior.

[G.B. (All Vinyl Dragon)]

I agree with & Most Club Members I think will, Good Standards for Original & Welcome Modified with that Class. I remember when Joined In Clubs in Late 70’s Most wanted Original.

Mid 80’s it started to change. You started seeing Wild Modified or Modified like Late Bobby Roades V8 that Club Members said, That Looks Original if K F put a V 8 in the Vehicles.

So then We had Modified & You would Say, It’s still Here & didn’t Go to The Crusher. That’s a Win.

[Gordie]

While we wait for judging standards to be formulated here is a little information on tires that is applicable to all of our cars.  Black wall tires were standard equipment on all of the car models except the Darrins and Golden Dragons.  They came from the factory with white walls. 1951 Dragons had 6:70x15 tires as standard equipment while the 1953 Dragons used 7:10x15 tires.  Originally 6:50x15 tires were used on all early cars. That size is not available from any tire maker today and the replacement size is 6:70x15.  In mid 1947 Super Cushion tires were introduced and they were used through 1953.  Whitewalls were not available until March 1947 and if  the car was ordered with whitewall tires the white wall width was 4 1/4 inches until the 1954 cars were announced for the full sized cars.  The tire industry switched to a narrower whitewall of approximately 2 1/2 inch wide for the 6:70x15 inch size in 1954.  All tires were tube type until 1955 when tubeless tires were introduced.  Kaiser Travelers and the taxi  were equipped with  7:10x15 tires when introduced in 1949. 5:90x15 inch tires were the advertised size for Henry J's and Darrins.  The whitewall width was approximately 3 inches wide.  All cars should  have five matching tires and wheels although because of war time shortages spare tires were eliminated for short periods of time in 1947 and 1951.  We have never deducted judging points for any brand of tire but Goodyear was the main supplier to Kaiser-Frazer.  Radial tires were never original equipment on any Kaisers or Frazers.  Valve caps should be metal and not be of the type that has a valve core remover on the end.  No plastic valve caps.

[MarkH]

On the subject of tires, Michelin reproduces their vintage radial sold through Coker that's fairly narrow and has a more rounded tread than modern tires. It's their 60's version rather than the earlier 50's one but some sizes cross match to some hard to find bias sizes.

[jake]

Is this the sheet we still use?

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Judging modifieds is rather easy.  The most important thing is caliber of the workmanship from condition of sheet metal (or fiberglass) to quality of upholstery work.  Then there's the "engineering" involved such as the installation of a different engine or drivetrain..well planned out or cut, drop & run.  Third is the owner's intent.  Did the car get turned into a gasser/dragster or hot rod or is the owner trying to keep the car looking like original or were modifications "hidden"?   Hot rod, gasser/dragster or a sleeper, the modified car is an expression of the owner's desires in an old car.  A well done vehicle deserves the recognition that an original restoration or survivor car gets but for different reasons.

The evaluation of a car--modified or original categories--is to show what a third-party evaluator (aka judge) believes to be strengths or weaknesses, like a GANTT Chart on a manufacturing process.  The owner of the vehicle can take or leave the results and comes away with opportunities for improvement should they want to do something.  I do know of members who used a very good judging result to support their request with their old car insurance carrier for increased replacement value.  Among this group of people looking for a higher value are those who spent much more than OLD CARS PRICE GUIDE or other valuation tables indicate and got coverage for what was spent.  Like anything insured, the carrier wants proof that the car is worth insuring the risk at the level requested.

Those of you who complain about judging can also be part of the solution but only if you have the desire to get involved.  For the first time in decades, the club's management is actively working to fix things.  Come and help fix what's broken.  If you want to do so, email me direct, kaiserfrazerlibrary@yahoo.com.

Two more quick things.  FIRST, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE YOUR CAR EVALUATED (JUDGED) IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO AT A MEET.  SECOND, THE CLUB HAS ALWAYS HAD A SEPARATE CLASS FOR MODIFIEDS. 

[Gordie]

Sealed beam headlights first appeared when the automobile industry as a whole decided in 1940 to change to them from the bulb type lights.  The first ones look like the typical sealed beam style but they were merely a bulb inserted in the the familiar sealed beam shape.  After 1946 when car production started again after WW war II the light portion changed and the old bulb disappeared.  That is the style of headlight that was used in our cars for all ten years of production.  They did not have the aiming tips molded into the face of the sealed beam.  That started in about 1957 after Kaiser production stopped.  The old style bulbs can still be found on old cars in wrecking yards and at automobile swap meets.  They are not available at your local auto parts store.  To be perfectly original that is what should be used and be sure that the bulbs are a matching pair. Some of the manufacturers had their name  molded in the bottom of the sealed beam such as Westinghouse or General Electric. Be sure that you  use two from the same manufacturer.

[joefrazer]

Since Willys used Autolite as their supplier, their line used Autolite headlamp bulbs. Theirs are easily distinguishable by a round center section in the glass that's about an inch across. Occasionally NOS and used units show up on eBay - and they command top dollar because they are extremely rare.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1949-1952-1953-1954-AUTOLITE-CHRYSLER-HEADLIGHT-PLYMOUTH-DODGE-DESOTO-6-VOLT/173617605542?hash=item286c6a6ba6:g:O6kAAOSw3mpXI~21:rk:38:pf:0