Kaiser Frazer Club Judging

[Gordie]

Hi guys,  I am a little confused by the Kaiser Frazer Club judging rules.  I contacted the chief judge with a request for a copy of the judging form and a SASE but never got a reply.  I wondered why so many modified hot rods get automatic 200 points?  That is kind of an insult to those of us who really scramble for parts and put in lots of hours in restoration time and dollars trying to make our car look like it just came off of the showroom floor.   The rodders have great clubs of their own and some of their meets draw over 5,000 participants.  The Quarterly states that the goal of the club is "a sincere interest in the preservation of the cars"...  I guess that the cars could be preserved as hot rods but is that really what is meant?  I would like to see us have a class for the few unrestored cars left called the "Preservation Class".  Many other clubs have this class where these few survivors are respected for their originality with their original paint and upholstery and not have to compete with restored cars.  After all that is what we hope our cars will look like after we restore them and those few survivors need to be kept original for all of us to learn from.  I like street rods and even own a couple but I would never take one to a club meet that doesn't want to see them.  There are pros and cons to my argument and I would like to hear your comments and ideas.  Where is our judging going and do we want to have guidelines for the restoration of each model of Kaiser and Frazer and Willys?  I would love to see that but what do you think?  Gordie

[Fid]

I share your consternation. I feel judging at KF Nationals is a lost cause as so few people really know the cars any more. I have seen cars garner a silver award one year, then the owner corrects several items that received deductions, brings it to the next National and then it receives bronze!  It is meaningless - I have no regard for it.
As far as modified cars go, I would not like to see them banned as it is another form of preserving the cars. They can't all be restored and I think bringing them back in any form is a good thing. The problem is how do you, or should you, judge modified cars? At a national, a restoration/preservation car is judged based on authenticity (even though some judges  do not know what is authentic) whereas modified cars are judged based on Fit and Finish.  If someone does a nice job of modifying a car, it can get 200 points. If a car is restored nicely but the restorer cannot find, or does not know (because as you pointed out, there is no list of guidelines available from the club!) which battery cables are correct, or which radio antenna is acceptable, well... that car gets deductions.
The one that really burned me was in Auburn, Indiana in 2004 - the longest distance award. It was asked who had driven the longest distance in a KF product and member who had a modified car had the audacity to stick his hand up! The car he drove had not one KF part in the drive train and yet he got the longest distance driven in a KF award! Figure that one out.
My attitude is, I'll make my cars the best I can, I'll bring them to the meets, discuss them, enjoy friends etc. but when it comes to judging, count me out.  If I do have the car judged, I disregard it as it has no credibility.  Look through some old quarterlies and see how many cars get gold one  year, silver the next, bronze the next and it will amaze you.  In my opinion, it is subjective and cannot be taken seriously.
When I work on my cars, it is because I truly enjoy it and it comes from the heart. When the day comes that I start doing things to it because I want some sort of award then lock me up.
That's my observation/opinion for whatever it is worth.

[Gordie]

Thanks Fid,  that is a great observation from one who has been around for many years and really knows the lack of value of a Kaiser Frazer Club trophy.  It is not the best or worst cars that get improper awards but the Bronze and Silver cars.  Our cars are gaining in value and it is important that we have a judging system that recognizes what is and is not authentic on our cars and judging guidlines can make an expert out of most judges by having a list of correct features for every car right in front of them.  An extensive series of guidelines were made by one of the members but was rejected by the club officers at the time as not being necessary!  I saw one of them and it is of great value.  I think that the time has come to bring those guidelines back as they are really needed if the judging system is to have any merit.  Our cars are complicated and it is hard to find an expert on any given year and a little help is needed in the form of guidelines.  Lets give our judging system a dose of integrity.  I agree that there is a place for the modified cars but they should not be judged with the same system used for original cars.  How about a "peoples choice" and "participation" awards  Why do we have to judge them at all?  Gordie

[52AeroWillys]

Resto-rods allow more drivability to meets which are usually not in our immediate locale. I'd rather see someone drive to a meet with a resto-rod than have a "trailer queen" original show up and get high points. My definition of a resto-rod is that the car still has all the bea ;)uty and original appeal as originals. Meets and shows in the Midwest summers do not appeal to a lot of spouses unless the drive to and from is pleasant and reliable. Needless to say, I've been on both sides of the argument against resto-rods, but my marriage has fewer arguments when we travel with our resto.

[Gordie]

That is a very good point.  Keeping the gals happy and willing to participate with us is really important.  I used to drive my old cars everywhere and if I broke down I would just go to a parts store and buy what I needed, fix the car and get back on the road.  Well,  I have been doing this for a long time and things are not what they used to be.  Today if you have an old car you better carry spares or know where to get them.  If you ask for parts for a Kaiser they look at you like you are crazy and let you know that it is not in their computer.  I like to drive my old cars but when you get into your seventies the thought of breaking down somewhere on a hot day is kind of scarey.  I have solved the problem by buying an open car trailer and hauling my car to the meet behind my air conditioned van and having the car to enjoy while at the meet.  Thanks for joining in the discussion and how do you think resto-rods should be judged vs stock cars?

[52AeroWillys]

We take our resto-rod for the fun of seeing other K-F members and their cars. We don't expect awards because we realize the interest and controversy over judging "originals", and would not be offended if our car was not judged like the rest of the vehicles. We love seeing a tastefully done resto and love to compare it with the stock vehicles of the era. We also recognize the uniqueness of the cars in the K-F organization and know that wherever our cars show up they get lots of attention. That attention says nothing about how a car was judged. The judging results are not important to the spectators. We're missing the boat of keeping the public aware of K-F if we won't take a car to a meet because we won't like the judging results. We'd favor a separate class for resto's if they are causing bad feelings.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

A number of years ago, when I had my first 1952 Kaiser deLuxe (and my father was still alive & in the business) he produced a set of 7.70 x 15's for the car because the set it had when I got it was dry-rotted.  But that was 30 years ago, and a lot of the tire sizes were discontinued as the move the radials finished in the 1980's.  It's also too bad that Sears discontinued their Allstate classic tires that came out of a tire plant in England, and used the 1950's molds.

As long as I have been in the club, judging has been the biggest single problem here.  I know that Mike Neubecker is trying to come up with a way to fix this.  Unfortunately, as long as "do you go to all the national conventions" is a prime factor in who gets to do what, the great majority of members will be locked out of the decision making/action processes.  At least, that is my experience on such things.

[Gordie]

Hello,  I am going to try and make it to the National Meet In July but If I break down and am late please if you are there go to the board meeting and tell the powers that it is really important that we get started with the judging platforms that Jack Mueller worked so hard to implement for all of the different models of Kaiser and Frazer.  They are needed by the judges, car owners and anyone interested in trying to make our restorations authentic.  There is nothing else like them and we really need to get them to you guys for fine tuning.  On a fun note, I just purchased a '51 Kaiser custom made convertible that was on eBay and I will be coming from California and picking it up in Iowa around July 1st and will try to get it to the meet on my trailer.  It needs a total restoration and was done probably in the fifties so it will be an interesting project.  I hope to see you all there!  Gordie Chamberlin

[Gordie]

Hi,  I just got home after eleven days on the road from Los Angeles to Iowa to pick up my new '51 Kaiser and then on to the National Meet in Illinois and then to Missouri to drop off the car and back to Los Angeles.  The good news is that after some wrangling at the board of directors meeting at the National Jack Mueller was able to get the implemention of the judging guidelines started and hopefully by later this summer they should be worked on and improved.  I hope that they can be distributed to anyone interested in a particular model for comments and fine tuning.  They may be done on CD's which would allow for easy changes and an inexpensive method for distribution.  I am anxious to see the first drafts of the guidelines.  Jack had a huge book with most of the different models of Kaiser Frazer included.  He had worked on it for three years only to be told by old officers that they were not necessary and a waste of paper!!!  How times have changed!  Also look for the Bulletin to be available online in the future which would allow for color to be used.  The convention was great and it was fun to see many old friends and to put faces on the many members that we email frequently.  There were many parts vendors with several truck loads of goodies.  Gordie

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Let me clarify Gordie's comments...

1.  I indicated that a reasonable target for rolling out Judging Standards material for test and discussion would be NEXT YEAR'S NATIONAL CONVENTION, not later this summer.  Same goes for Version 4.0 of KFOCI HANDBOOK.  I still work a full time job and do weekend commutes from Ohio to southern Kentucky until further notice.  That doesn't leave much time to do stuff.

2.  Both these items are intended for release on CD;  While putting them on the Website for download would be nice, I have yet to start on the individual car information in KFOCI HANDBOOK and am already over 5MB file size....I am projecting close to 100MB or more when everything is done.

3.  With regard to the judging standards, my idea is to get the hard-copy materials re-done (the original hard-copy was done in the early 1990's and was on 5 1/4" floppies that are no longer around) and let the membership decide which information they prefer...what I have done or what the Eastern Division people are promoting.  I'll go with what the majority want.

4.  Anyone interested in a sample of the Judging Standards material that Gil Courtain started and I finished will be able to obtain a copy by contacting kaiserfrazerlibrary@yahoo.com after September 15, 2007. Again, please remember that at this stage, you would be looking at a draft copy that may need testing and some revision rather than final form.  Comments would be appreciated.

[Gordie]

I am sure that anyone with a 1951 Kaiser will be looking forward to vewing the judging guidelines and for me, I can hardly wait!  The nice thing is that 1951 is just the first of a series of our KF products that Jack has done.  When September rolls around order your copy and if you have any questions or comments or additions please let Jack know so that we can make these guidelines as accurate and as useful for all of us as possible.  We don't have too many supermen in our club and lets give Jack all of the support that we can.  He is doing a Superman job for us!  Gordie

[mbflemingkf]

Dragon Whisperer (great handle by the way)...tell us about your new car!  Where are you located?  I'm in NC.  Regards, Mike Fleming  mbfleming@aol.com