Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Judging & Factory Correct Discussions => Topic started by: Gordie on December 28, 2018, 01:48:48 PM
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KFOCI has offered judging since its inception and judging is written into our bi-laws. Our judging system has had a rocky history with untrained early judges making decisions based on memory instead of fact and an early chief judge that would guarantee a gold award if the judged car was done in his shop. Many disappointed car owners left the club over bad judging decisions and never came back. Today we are seeing more and more modified cars on the judging field and they mostly get a gold award if they are well done but they cannot be judged on authenticity which was the original focus of the club. Our Spring 2018 issue of the Quarterly has an excellent story about our judging system written by Chief Judge Charlotte Dayton who does a fine job every year. The problem is that we are getting more and more modified cars and Willys products which we want to join us and we enjoy seeing them. We just do not have the expertise to judge them for authenticity Today's fuel which is ever changing is no longer compatible with the original fuel systems in our cars. Maybe it is time to encourage all kinds of Kaiser-Willys products and judge them on longest distance traveled or a hard luck trophy or what ever non competitive award is appropriate and not expect the meet hosts to continue to provide expensive trophies to cars that we really do not judge for authenticity. We have developed fine judging guidelines for members who want their cars to look like the day that they left the assembly line. Today if you expect to drive that car you must modify the fuel system to run on modern gasoline and probably install an electric fuel pump and seat belts for safety which are modifications that are approved by our judging system but are not as the car left the factory. Modern tires can be found that look like originals but they are much safer and are not made like the originals which are not available. We have very good judges but they are few in number and not all are available at all of the National meets and we have no system to train new ones for the future. Should we just enjoy all of the cars as they are or continue judging an ever changing group of vehicles that we are not really qualified to judge? We need your thoughts on judging so that we can continue the fine activities that we have always enjoyed. What changes would you like to see in our judging system?
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I think a set of assembly standards - note that I did not say judging standards - should be documented for those who want their cars to most closely resemble how they left the factory. For those who want a car “judged” it would be done as a service rather than a competition, which is how it’s viewed today.
The service would help an owner fine tune their restoration without the pressure of competing against the car beside theirs.
With diminishing resources...fewer experienced judges...it’s time to revisit the entire authentication process.
Feedback is welcome.
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Our judging system has had a rocky history with untrained early judges making decisions based on memory instead of fact...
It's not judging that's the problem, it's lack of Judging standards. It's not possible to bring something up to standard when there's no standard to compare.
I (and several others knowledgeable) have offered and provided input several times in the past decade or so only to see it go nowhere.
In the old days when there was first, second and third place awards I didn't care for it as it pitted owners/cars against one another.
The Bronze, Silver, Gold is much better as the car is rated on its own merits as opposed to someone deciding "mine's better than yours..." which only causes conflict.
I'm still for judging only because it gives me (and anyone else interested) an idea of what needs to be done to make my cars truly authentic, not because I want a $15 trophy.
I'm anxious to hear (read) what others have to say.
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joefrazer, we were both typing/posting at the same time! It appears we are saying essentially the same thing.
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Fid,
You saved Me a Lot Time & said it Well. We added modified for Folks not wanting Original.
We still need a Standard for Original for a Balance. Plus The respect of All the Members that keeped The Original Standard. Studied History to Keep it Correct.
We have adjusted it That I’m not trying to compete with another’s Vehicle, but Improving My Restoration. I like Preservation if 5-10 Years You Have Same Points.
More Later.
joefrazer, Your Correct to. We have to have a respectful Standard of Original.
Ah , a good reason for More later.
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Those are all good ideas! Keep them coming and we will make things happen.
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Our judging system has had a rocky history with untrained early judges making decisions based on memory instead of fact...
It's not judging that's the problem, it's lack of Judging standards. It's not possible to bring something up to standard when there's no standard to compare.
I (and several others knowledgeable) have offered and provided input several times in the past decade or so only to see it go nowhere.
In the old days when there was first, second and third place awards I didn't care for it as it pitted owners/cars against one another.
The Bronze, Silver, Gold is much better as the car is rated on its own merits as opposed to someone deciding "mine's better than yours..." which only causes conflict.
I'm still for judging only because it gives me (and anyone else interested) an idea of what needs to be done to make my cars truly authentic, not because I want a $15 trophy.
I'm anxious to hear (read) what others have to say.
FOR THOSE THAT REMEMBVER AND WILL ADMIT--I WAS BASICALY RAILROADED WHEN I INCLUDED IN MY FIRST DARRIN NEWSWLETTER, DETAILED PROPOSED JUDING STANDARDS. I WAS EMPHATICALLY TOLD THAT WE HAVE 'EXPERTS' WHO KNOW HOW THE CARS WERE BUILT. I HAVE DARRIN NEWSLETTERS FROM 50 YEARS AGO THAT HAD THESE SAME COMPLAINTS AND OWNERS LEAVING THE CLUB BECAUSE OF NOTHING CONSISTENT IN JUDGING. I THINK IT WAY TOO LATE TO CORRECT THIS SHIP WITH NEW STANDARDS AND VOTE TO ELIMINATE JUDING. THE MIDWEST DIVISION DID SO A FEW YEARS AGO AT A NATIONAL AND MOST LOVED IT. CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION AND BE DONE WITH IT!!!!
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Does KFOCI allow 'Display Only' cars on the show field for folks that aren't interested in having their K-F product judged, but would like to show it off at a National Meet?
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Absolutely! As our chief judge explained in her article in the Quarterly that everyone who registers gets a judging form. If you do not want your car to be judged just mark it "Do Not Judge". If you are not registered you can not park in the judging area.
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Judging seems to be a problem at all of the conventions I have attended. People can and do get very upset with judging. I have always had modified cars and worst of all I have modified Darrins for some reason most members think that modifying a Darrin is sac religious. I have been modifying Darrins since I was 16 years old when I bought my first Darrin in 1961 Which is #60 and is the yellow drag race car. The other 2 Darrins are also modified and I am in the process of restoring 2 more Darrins that will be original. I have always had my cars judged but I am not in favor of judging. I have said that I think that we loose a lot of members due to judging. It seems to be something that causes the most anger in car owners. Judging can be very subjective and therefore not always understood.
I think the idea of having cars judged or opting out seems to work. The only problem comes with modified cars. How many mods make it modified. We need rules for that. Too many rules can cause more problems. We have a social club it should be fun sometimes judging can take the fun out of it.
It definitely needs to be discussed.
Lee
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The HET (Hudson Club) explicitly states in their By-Laws (Article III) that there will be no judging at any of their meets. They recognized long ago that judging created friction within the membership and wanted to, instead, focus on the main tenet of a club - its people. To the HET, bringing a car to a meet is encouraged, but being there yourself is more important. Personally, I attend meets to both renew old friendships and to look at the cars on display - especially if I'm working on a KF and want to see how someone else put theirs together.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think it's important that the KFOCI has a set of standards documented that anyone restoring a car can use to ensure their car meets the basic rule of "how the car left the factory". Our chief judge and team have been working to assemble a set of judging standards and if the decision is made to eliminate formal judging at mets, then that work could, and should, be aimed at documenting build standards.
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How many separate classes are there within the KFCOCI judging?
See page 24 of the Fall 2018 Quarterly
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I'm recrafting this response to more generically speak to the subject of vehicle insurability. I work for a major insurer and for us, when it comes to covering a vehicle, doing so for a modern vehicle is more straightforward than determining whether to insure an older one. Most standard carriers (Progressive, Geico, State Farm, etc) have a complex algorithm that determines a vehicle's insurability. The vehicle itself, its location, driver's information and coverages desired are some of the major ingredients.
For older vehicles like ours, an extra step may be necessary - the vehicle's value. Typically, the owner is asked to provide a value for the vehicle and if the insurer thinks the number is acceptable, and all of the other criteria is met, then the vehicle is covered. If the value is not within expectations an appraisal may be ordered where an independent third party is asked to examine the vehicle. The owner may be asked to provide additional documentation, such as receipts for work performed, to support the value declared (called stated value or stated amount in the industry) for use in developing a rate (the premium charged) as well for use in the event of a loss. Judging sheets are not used as part of the valuation process when there's a loss. I had the opportunity to speak to one of our generalists, who handles antique vehicle claims, about this and his response was that club judging is done by folks who aren't professionals so they are not used as a source for determining a vehicle's value. Disclaimer - that's how we handle this where I work but I can't speak for the industry as a whole.
Circling back to the original question, standards should be assembled for our vehicles. If there are those who wish to use them to have their vehicle judged at a KF meet, then the opportunity should be made available to them. In years past, emphasis was put on judging and folks spent a lot of time prepping their cars for the main event. Today, the emphasis should be on the gathering of folks sharing a common interest in the cars who renew old friendships and make new ones. If the parking lot is full of KFW vehicles and some of the owners want their cars judged, that's great, and if it isn't that's OK too.
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My insurance company (American Family) has limited the replacement value on my car because it's not yet completed. Not as much as I have in it but far above #1 book value.
Once it's finished, they will increase the agreed value with a valuation from an appraiser or restorer. For me, they said that can be the owner of a local shop that puts out high dollar customs, or even the guy that paints their cars (and mine). There was no mention of originality, something a guy with a 6 figure custom could never attain.
I'm not going to have any trouble getting a full replacement cost evaluation. Then it becomes a balance between how high of a premium to pay versus out of pocket replacement risk.
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Yes, You would Think Judging standard or an assembly would be the same. But Tires example ? Some come out with WW on Top of the Line. Dragons should have 710-15 with 4 inch WW. But next time You needed Tires 3 inch something but still 710-15 Size.
It was We could go with 3 something & It would Pass. Now I Hear back to 4 inch.
OK, this is Correct & You can get Goodyear 4 inch & that’s what was on Our Original, Got Home Movies to Prove it. Does Anyone clean WW in Our Club.
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The reason that we use the car after it left the factory versus after it left the dealership for judging is because the dealers would often sell and install non Kaiser Frazer accessories to the buyer instead of the K-F approved accessories. Accessory hood ornaments and gas tank lid guards are two examples. 4 1/4 inch whitewalls were the original width when the cars were new and the replacement Goodyears now available are authentic if you order that size and whitewall width. Having those wide whitewalls on our cars certainly teaches us to stay away from curbs while parking. It takes a lot of scrubbing to keep those whitewalls clean.
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Written detailed judging standards for the Darrin were issued several years ago by Char Dayton. Even tho that document is an official KFOCI document, it was NOT used for judging of Darrins at the last National. Sort of like the Seinfeld episode when he says you take the reservation but you don't keep the reservation.
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In this month’s news bulletin the subject of judging is included in the presidents message. So, it is in front of the membership.
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Brillo soap pads also work very well also especially if you have scuffed the curb with your sidewall. Just wet your wheels and tires and clean the whitewall carefully and keep the steel wool soap pads away from your hubcaps and the paint on your rims then rinse it off.
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Looks like we found a new CHIEF JUDGE
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I'm new to the KFOC but have shown cars at the AACA meets. In AACA the owner has a choice to be judged or not. If you choose to be judged the car is awarded 400 points just for driving on the field. When items are found not to be as the car left the factory, points are taken away. A certain point level is needed to achieve various levels of awards. Cars in the same class are NOT judged against each other. As a result there can be several first place winners in each class or if none of the cars score the lowest minimum points needed thee may be only second or third place cars in the class. Something to consider.
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Likewise inevitably subjective for horse shows for over 2 centuries. Having been involved with horses for 49 years, I have to say that the KFOCI nationals that I have attended demonstrate considerable pride of the car owners with a minimal sense of competitive spirit. Often owners are optimistic and helpful at least compared to some horse shows. Just human nature I guess.
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It is useful to keep in mind the vehement critic of judging and its effects is coming from an individual who has never been to a national and bases his statements solely to his own divine feelings. He will persist until he gets someone to kiss his ring. The longer people strike his bait the longer he will troll.
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Likewise inevitably subjective for horse shows for over 2 centuries. Having been involved with horses for 49 years, I have to say that the KFOCI nationals that I have attended demonstrate considerable pride of the car owners with a minimal sense of competitive spirit. Often owners are optimistic and helpful at least compared to some horse shows. Just human nature I guess.
Very fitting for you to mention horses. I've been thinking for several days that this subject keeps getting flogged long after the horse has been beaten to death.
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Terry...looking back at your post regarding your first Darrin newsletter...What year was that? I’m trying to see if I have it in the old man’s records.
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I'm new to the KFOC but have shown cars at the AACA meets. In AACA the owner has a choice to be judged or not. If you choose to be judged the car is awarded 400 points just for driving on the field. When items are found not to be as the car left the factory, points are taken away. A certain point level is needed to achieve various levels of awards. Cars in the same class are NOT judged against each other. As a result there can be several first place winners in each class or if none of the cars score the lowest minimum points needed thee may be only second or third place cars in the class. Something to consider.
Agree. It's pretty simple. I am a member of the Buick Club of America which copied the AACA judging method verbatim. 400 point judging. There is no judging of cars compared to other cars. In theory I am sure that is how KFOCI does it. In practice, well, when an over restored car shows up, even against a car that is actually and really "all original" it will blow the original car out of the water.
That is the dilemma facing the hobby since the speculation years of the late 1980's/early 90's made this hobby all about money. In the BCA the "400 point show club" group has (had hopefully soon) taken over the BCA. To them, the holy grail day of a BCA National meet is that Show Saturday, when all of the riff raff have to removed from the show field for a few hours so the "400 point show" can be conducted.
Then it's eerily quiet in the afternoon while the totals are counted so that those who handed their cars over to restoration shops can be awarded plastic and wood trophies before the cars are loaded inside trailers and taken back to climate controlled garages.
No judging is my recommendation in a casual club like KFOCI where camaraderie is king and you are trying to keep every member possible.
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So...do we all just get participation awards then? I fail to see exactly what it is you want other than your perception that judging equates competition...already established from many that is not the case.
Noah:
Judging does not equate competition, that is just his perspective. Judge according to a standard - that is agreed on by a committee not Charlotte alone - and judge each car to that standard.
I am not for judging but I certainly see a point in it. In other words, if the standards book is solid and correct, then judging based on it advocates for the stewardship of the marque. Which is a good thing. A club should endeavor to promote "correct" looking and driving marque cars. BUT not to the detriment of club growth, fun, or camaraderie.
If we took the position that there was no more judging at regional meets and national meets, would the correctness of KF products go down? Does that matter? It's not an easy call.
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Finally, the Head Judge of the BCA is rotated. By by-laws the National Head Judge is term limited. I believe I understand that some members over the years have objected to the lack of objectivity because of judging being the domain of one person, over and over again. Rotate the Head Judge.
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Roadmaster...good points. In all honesty, judging is the farthest thing from my mind. It’s funny. When my dad bought his Darrin he was shortly rearended by a drunk driver...the body shop had no “spare parts” to obtain and were uncertain what to do with a plastic car. They could only, modify it using other makes items(although the needed items weren’t many). It ceased being OEM and factory correct early in its life. My goal is simply to drive it. I give kudos to those that go the meticulous route. It’s just not for me. I know what it is...not going to be offended if someone lets me know what it isnt😂(I’d take it with a grain or two of salt anyways), but will get it as close as I can. This is going to continue to be a case of “you can’t please everyone.” Everyone must remember you can’t be all things to everyone all the time. I believe that holds true in all car clubs(just my 2 cents). It does sound like the officers need to designate a group of individuals to compile any existing lists of standards that may exist from the clubs inception and fine tune an updated one(again, knowing it’s not going to please all). I just know I do not possess enough knowledge on Kaisers to offer assistance.
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Judging is mostly subjective even with rules. My Traveler won Best of Show twice and People Choice once, when the people were the ones judging as to overall appeal and presentation (I create a story of the time[Drive-In Tray, Drive-In Speakers, Air Conditioner, Parking Meter, Desert Bag etc.] and who Henry J. Kaiser is[showing pictures of the projects HJK accomplished]) and not those who look at just a list of rules. I'm not negating the rules however our cars are so old and fewer are retaining "Original" status that an adjustment might be sought after some discussion about what the real purpose judging will become.
I have shown my Traveler before, I am including pictures so you don't have to go back and find them.
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I have attended national meets held by car clubs that do and do not include judging, I feel the judging does add an air of competition that does upset or disappoint too many participants to make it worthwhile. These days we need to do all we can to maintain members enjoyment level. An available set of guidelines for car owners to follow if they desire would serve well as I don't think a lack of formal judging diminishes the quality of restorations.
The KF club judges do a fine job of a difficult task, I wonder if the time required for this is better spent kicking tires, seeing the sights of the area where the meet is held, enjoying the fellowship of members and engaging with interested members of the public.
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Now you start to get it. Often the people who want to be judged are those who have sunk $$$$$ into their cars (be it a K-f/Willys product or some other make) either through purchase price or purchase price plus additional restoration/upgrade work. They want to get some assurance that if something happens to their vehicle they can recoup their investment just like a home owner does with their dwelling. Insurance companies deal with facts and want to be sure they are underwriting for a legitimate value. The results from club judging helps the appraiser for the insurance company to get a "warm and fuzzy" about the coverage amount requested.
Joefrazer & I gave first hand knowledge of insurance companies take on this earlier in this thread, now try looking at it like this.
Number 1 value on my Aero has been stuck at around 15K for decades. Let's say it's finished & I take it to a meet and somehow get judged at 100 points and meet the clubs assessment that it's in #1 condition. Using the above logic, I can take that trophy to an insurance company and now get a 15K policy.
Problem is, it cost more than #1 value to do a full restoration. Fortunately the insurance company(s) recognizes this and will write for higher than "book" value. My company readily agreed to value my car considerably higher than #1, wrote the policy, and it's still in pieces!
They never asked how it judged, how it would judge, how original it is or is going to be, or even if I belonged to a car club.
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EDIT: Holy smoke, whoever said there's another jake pegged it. There were 5 pages in this thread when I wrote the response above, only 3 after I posted. Dejavu all over again
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Bustedwing's comments gone.
I never thought of the insurance issue as a motivation to receive an award or acknowledgement from a club.
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Antique Auto Insurance that I have has hoped I was a Member of an Antique Car Club.
So Our this Club,Local Club Geronimo. It’s with the National AACA. This has been My Clubs.
I always say The K/F/W Club means The most because They Know Our Vehicle’s the Best.
I been to 3 of Our Club National, Wichita 1st. , St. Louis 2nd, Long Beach Queen Mary - Spruce Goose got 1st. In Dragon # 7. Plus Lots of Reginals.
I been to Two AACA Reginals 12 to 15 Years apart & Got Second Jr. both Times. I told Our Local Members this was like The Preservation trophy. Been all over the Country & still same points.
I still on 2,500 Mile a Year. But when I get to Our Club Nationals I would go over. They said You’re covered, but keep All Docementation.
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Judging conflicts at our last National meet have caused our chief judge to resign as well as the loss of a valuable member all because the accurate judging standards were not observed by some of the judges. Judging standards or assembly standards, whatever we want to call them, are critical for accurate judging. We have judging standards for all of our Kaiser and Frazer models but they need to be followed by the judges and chief judge. The judging standards are published in Jim Betts circlekf website. I hope that we can form a committee to finish formatting all of this information so that every owner of a Kaiser or Frazer can have access to the information and it will help us all to make our cars as original as we want them to be. Who would like to be on that committee? It will be a valuable thing for the club to have.
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THE MIDWEST DIVISION DID SO A FEW YEARS AGO AT A NATIONAL AND MOST LOVED IT.
Terry, I can't find anything to support/confirm your statement.
Former Midwest Director Dick Weidinger twice submitted proposals (different years) to eliminate judging at the Nationals. Both times it was voted down. As I recall, a back-door attempt was made to eliminate judging at the 2013 National in Shipshewana by charging $15 per car for judging; it was over-ruled and judging was held as usual.
Since that time no new proposals have been submitted to remove/amend By-Laws Article 6, Section 1 which requires judging at Nationals. Until such time as another proposal is submitted for discussion and vote by the Membership, judging is required. However, a member may select not to have their vehicle judged at National.
Judging at Division or Region meets is optional, and in recent years most have elected not to judge.
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I did not see you walking around the field at that National, so how can you speak about what was said?
QED
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I did not see you walking around the field at that National, so how can you speak about what was said?
QED
Terry, I'm not sure if you are responding to me, but in case you are here's my reply: whether or not you saw me "walking around the field" has absolutely no bearing on the FACTS I presented: Judging is still required by our By-Laws and has been done at all Nationals including those hosted by the Midwest Division.
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Why are the judging standards not on the official club website?
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I did not see you walking around the field at that National, so how can you speak about what was said?
QED
Terry, I'm not sure if you are responding to me, but in case you are here's my reply: whether or not you saw me "walking around the field" has absolutely no bearing on the FACTS I presented: Judging is still required by our By-Laws and has been done at all Nationals including those hosted by the Midwest Division.
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yep--I am responding to you
the "most" were those walking around the parking lot and functions at the National
since you were not there, you had no opportunity to hear them
those there shared their thinking--psst-I was one of them
didn't feel the need to document it for your edification
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yep--I am responding to you
the "most" were those walking around the parking lot and functions at the National
since you were not there, you had no opportunity to hear them
those there shared their thinking--psst-I was one of them
didn't feel the need to document it for your edification
Terry, if you're referring to 2013 National in Shipshewana, I was there ... and, maybe not at the same time as you, but I did "walk around the field."
Yes, some people don't like/want judging but that does not change the FACT that judging was done there - and continues to be done.
Every year members have the opportunity to submit proposals to amend the Constitution & By-Laws. If you feel so strongly against judging, why haven't you ever submitted a proposal? (FYI: my question is rhetorical - no need for you to reply)
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Why are the judging standards not on the official club website?
That is an excellent suggestion that would not only result in build standards being openly available to every club member, but end the perceptions of "subjectivity" from some who choose to be judged.
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for those that have watched "Seinfield"..."so you know how to take the reservation..you just don't keep the reservation".
so---you may know how to post the judging sheets, you just don't use...
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What happens if no cars show up?
This was a HOA meet in 2016...
I was picking up a car part and join them for the day..
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Why are the judging standards not on the official club website?
The judging guidelines are presently available on Jim Betts website circlekf.com. Hopefully a committee can be formed to prepare them for use in judging and restoring our cars. We can not continue to judge the cars based on opinion or memories. Guidelines or build standards and changes will be available for each year and model of the Kaiser-Frazer cars made in 1946 through 1955 and to include the Carabela's made in Argentina.
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Yes, and the standards should be documented on the club’s website and not that of a member (this is not a slight to Jim). If they are a “work in progress” then don’t publish them anywhere until they’re far enough along to be of value.
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What happens if no cars show up?
This was a HOA meet in 2016...
I was picking up a car part and join them for the day..
Jake, obviously if no cars show up there can't be judging ... but the HOA meet you reference was a region meet - not the National.
As stated before, Divisions/Regions can determine whether or not to have judging but until such time as a proposal to amend the club By-Laws to eliminate judging is approved by the membership, it is mandatory at the National.
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so....does the proposal and voting only take place at the National meet?
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Yes, but we would like to have your opinion right here in the forum. If no one responds with opinions the vote at the National meet will determine the future of judging. I hope that we can continue it but only if the cars are not modified. Modified cars are very welcome but we should not be judging them along side original cars. Modified cars should get a participation award for attending.
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Thank you for that clarification. Looking back over the thread and the modified section, it seems there are a number of suggestions already. We all know the OEM cars are getting few and far between. Why not reach out to the other clubs to see what they are doing so you don't have to recreate the wheel? I believe someone mentioned what one was doing already(cannot remember if it was the Studebaker group or not). But I also agree the standards need to be added to the Official site and not another site. (again, not a slight to Mr. Betts as he established an invaluable source I explore frequently as well as the FB groups).
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I agree with Gordie because if you modify a car there is no way to judge it except for presentation, so a points judging will not work. Modified cars which I have a few should be welcome and encouraged to become members. We are all gear heads and appreciate all cars and are fascinated by what people do to them.
Lee
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I have found from past experience that if the Standards are not approved by club or chief judge, you will get judged different by different judges. That's why they have to be documented by club.
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The judging guidelines are presently available on Jim Betts website circlekf.com. Hopefully a committee can be formed to prepare them for use in judging and restoring our cars. We can not continue to judge the cars based on opinion or memories...…………...
Jim Betts site is a marvel of valuable info but if there's an "official" standard it should also be posted on the club site, especially so after an eye opening conversation I had with an "expert" while looking for a rare option specifically listed in the parts book for my car.
I'm against mandatory judging but allowing optional entry to be judged at the meets is a good thing for those interested in participating.
I also agree modifieds should be welcome. Even modifieds could be judged in their own class (if desired) for mechanical neatness, paint and interior.
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I agree with & Most Club Members I think will, Good Standards for Original & Welcome Modified with that Class. I remember when Joined In Clubs in Late 70’s Most wanted Original.
Mid 80’s it started to change. You started seeing Wild Modified or Modified like Late Bobby Roades V8 that Club Members said, That Looks Original if K F put a V 8 in the Vehicles.
So then We had Modified & You would Say, It’s still Here & didn’t Go to The Crusher. That’s a Win.
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While we wait for judging standards to be formulated here is a little information on tires that is applicable to all of our cars. Black wall tires were standard equipment on all of the car models except the Darrins and Golden Dragons. They came from the factory with white walls. 1951 Dragons had 6:70x15 tires as standard equipment while the 1953 Dragons used 7:10x15 tires. Originally 6:50x15 tires were used on all early cars. That size is not available from any tire maker today and the replacement size is 6:70x15. In mid 1947 Super Cushion tires were introduced and they were used through 1953. Whitewalls were not available until March 1947 and if the car was ordered with whitewall tires the white wall width was 4 1/4 inches until the 1954 cars were announced for the full sized cars. The tire industry switched to a narrower whitewall of approximately 2 1/2 inch wide for the 6:70x15 inch size in 1954. All tires were tube type until 1955 when tubeless tires were introduced. Kaiser Travelers and the taxi were equipped with 7:10x15 tires when introduced in 1949. 5:90x15 inch tires were the advertised size for Henry J's and Darrins. The whitewall width was approximately 3 inches wide. All cars should have five matching tires and wheels although because of war time shortages spare tires were eliminated for short periods of time in 1947 and 1951. We have never deducted judging points for any brand of tire but Goodyear was the main supplier to Kaiser-Frazer. Radial tires were never original equipment on any Kaisers or Frazers. Valve caps should be metal and not be of the type that has a valve core remover on the end. No plastic valve caps.
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On the subject of tires, Michelin reproduces their vintage radial sold through Coker that's fairly narrow and has a more rounded tread than modern tires. It's their 60's version rather than the earlier 50's one but some sizes cross match to some hard to find bias sizes.
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Is this the sheet we still use?
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Judging modifieds is rather easy. The most important thing is caliber of the workmanship from condition of sheet metal (or fiberglass) to quality of upholstery work. Then there's the "engineering" involved such as the installation of a different engine or drivetrain..well planned out or cut, drop & run. Third is the owner's intent. Did the car get turned into a gasser/dragster or hot rod or is the owner trying to keep the car looking like original or were modifications "hidden"? Hot rod, gasser/dragster or a sleeper, the modified car is an expression of the owner's desires in an old car. A well done vehicle deserves the recognition that an original restoration or survivor car gets but for different reasons.
The evaluation of a car--modified or original categories--is to show what a third-party evaluator (aka judge) believes to be strengths or weaknesses, like a GANTT Chart on a manufacturing process. The owner of the vehicle can take or leave the results and comes away with opportunities for improvement should they want to do something. I do know of members who used a very good judging result to support their request with their old car insurance carrier for increased replacement value. Among this group of people looking for a higher value are those who spent much more than OLD CARS PRICE GUIDE or other valuation tables indicate and got coverage for what was spent. Like anything insured, the carrier wants proof that the car is worth insuring the risk at the level requested.
Those of you who complain about judging can also be part of the solution but only if you have the desire to get involved. For the first time in decades, the club's management is actively working to fix things. Come and help fix what's broken. If you want to do so, email me direct, kaiserfrazerlibrary@yahoo.com.
Two more quick things. FIRST, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE YOUR CAR EVALUATED (JUDGED) IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO AT A MEET. SECOND, THE CLUB HAS ALWAYS HAD A SEPARATE CLASS FOR MODIFIEDS.
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Sealed beam headlights first appeared when the automobile industry as a whole decided in 1940 to change to them from the bulb type lights. The first ones look like the typical sealed beam style but they were merely a bulb inserted in the the familiar sealed beam shape. After 1946 when car production started again after WW war II the light portion changed and the old bulb disappeared. That is the style of headlight that was used in our cars for all ten years of production. They did not have the aiming tips molded into the face of the sealed beam. That started in about 1957 after Kaiser production stopped. The old style bulbs can still be found on old cars in wrecking yards and at automobile swap meets. They are not available at your local auto parts store. To be perfectly original that is what should be used and be sure that the bulbs are a matching pair. Some of the manufacturers had their name molded in the bottom of the sealed beam such as Westinghouse or General Electric. Be sure that you use two from the same manufacturer.
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Since Willys used Autolite as their supplier, their line used Autolite headlamp bulbs. Theirs are easily distinguishable by a round center section in the glass that's about an inch across. Occasionally NOS and used units show up on eBay - and they command top dollar because they are extremely rare.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1949-1952-1953-1954-AUTOLITE-CHRYSLER-HEADLIGHT-PLYMOUTH-DODGE-DESOTO-6-VOLT/173617605542?hash=item286c6a6ba6:g:O6kAAOSw3mpXI~21:rk:38:pf:0
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It is true that Chrysler products used that style in the fifties but are they correct for Willys products also? According to Google posts Chrysler products started using them in 1949. By 1956 all Mopars went to 12 volt which still could have had the bullseye design.
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I have 5 NOS ;D GE 4030 (6-8 volt) headlight bulbs for sale that are correct for our cars. As Gordie stated, these are the smooth type that do not have the adjusting nubs. If authenticity is important to you, these are the real McCoy.
Priced very reasonably at $25 each plus actual shipping. Not easy to find.
e-mail me if interested. mbfleming@aol.com
Mike 8)
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If you don't want to have your cars judged, you don't have to. This has been presented over and over again. So, what is the problem?
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From reading the responses, the problem was subjective judging...not following a given SET list of standards. I was just reading through some old bulletins and there was issues way back when simply judging the spark plugs...Now that is an obvious mess if you can't even agree on that!
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If I remember Auto-Lite A-7 for 53 Kaiser.
A-5 for Late 40’s ?
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Auto-Lite A5 was the standard equipment plugs for all Frazers and 1947-51 Kaisers. During the 1951 model year, K-F went to the slightly higherheat A-7 which was used through production. However there is a K-F Service Bulletin from 1951 that advises you can go back to the A-5 heat range plug if you had at least 5,000 miles on the motor and having problems with vapor lock. Willys product used Auto-Lite AL7 plugs or Champion J-8 with HJ's and the Darrins using A-7 plugs. Allstates used the Allstate brand plug that matched specs of the A-7.
Former Chief Judge insisted on the J-8 for ALL K-F products; strange he also sold J-8's because he coiuldn't get Auto-Liute plugs at wholesale.
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OK, This is True. Thank You Historian for Correct Information. This is what I was told & it’s True.
So, if You’re wanting to Do Original, that’s the Parts You need If it’s A Show Car.
Daily Driver it’s What You think is The Best.
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Auto-Lite A5 was the standard equipment plugs for all Frazers and 1947-51 Kaisers. During the 1951 model year, K-F went to the slightly higherheat A-7 which was used through production. However there is a K-F Service Bulletin from 1951 that advises you can go back to the A-5 heat range plug if you had at least 5,000 miles on the motor and having problems with vapor lock. Willys product used Auto-Lite AL7 plugs or Champion J-8 with HJ's and the Darrins using A-7 plugs. Allstates used the Allstate brand plug that matched specs of the A-7.
Former Chief Judge insisted on the J-8 for ALL K-F products; strange he also sold J-8's because he coiuldn't get Auto-Liute plugs at wholesale.
The J8 issue was not the only aspect where many were lead done the wrong path by that former judge--remember undercoating on Darrins?
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One National I used then A-7 and the Judge said I should use the J-8. The next National I put the J-8s in before judging and they said it should be A-7. This will never get corrected without documentation. Does the club want correctness or do we want everyone to just say don't judge?
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Exactly why there is a need for a given/posted set list of standards and is adhered to. 8) That way it will eliminate Most subjective tendencies ;)
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Do We have a contact for A-7 Plugs ? I need some soon for Kaiser.
I have some A-5’s.
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When a club gets to debating correct spark plugs, and that is a deductible point(s) then the club is going in the wrong direction. That’s my opinion of course but I’m pretty sure it’s spot on. Cmon! You are seriously debating and having points deducted for a wear item!
What about motor oil and bias ply looking radials as sold by Coker? The list could go on and on of eye rolling extremes.
Is there a chief judge and judging team for the club? And when is deadline for the official judging manuals? Even then, a judging manual needs to be a living breathing manual. By that I mean periodic corrections and additions. Since I’m not a member presently I have stayed out of this conversation. But 2 pages of spark plug debate was too much.
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Spark plugs, hose clamps, hoses & belts lights....incredible the back-and-forth on this every year. I read a few years ago about about a big confrontation (not at a K/F meet) that dealt with the "proper" fasteners for a license plate.
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Many years ago at a Model A Ford Club of America meet the judging was really exacting and two cars came up for the best in show award and they were both almost perfectly restored. The winner was decided by the water in the radiators. One had coolant in the radiator which was not available or used by the factory at that time. Our club is not quite as demanding as that but we are working on great Kaiser-Frazer guidelines that will be the final word on how our cars were manufactured and sold. Everything in the new guidelines has been verified and we have documentation from Kaiser Frazer official paperwork to back it up. If we are to continue judging we must do it correctly and that is our goal. If you would like to contribute information or help in making up these new guidelines please contact our historian, Jack Mueller. Help is needed.
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I've got a set of NOS Willys headlight buckets in factory boxes. They have 6V GE Sealed Beam All Weather bulbs in them, Part # GE5040S on the bulb backside.
They also have a sticker on the front of the bulbs stating that the 6V bulbs need to be swapped to 12V bulbs for 12V systems, so I'm guessing they were made sometime after Willys went to 12V.
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Do they have the "bullseye" circle on the lens or the aiming nibs that came on the later bulbs? They must have been about the same time that Willlys vehicles switched from six to twelve volts. 1956?
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Do they have the "bullseye" circle on the lens or the aiming nibs that came on the later bulbs? They must have been about the same time that Willlys vehicles switched from six to twelve volts. 1956?
They do have a small circle in the center with the "GE" logo in it, and there's 3 nibs on the perimeter of the face. They're also stamped with "6V" in yellow ink on the lens as well as the sticker, so they were making sure to avoid 6V/12V mix ups.
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I'm just glad when the car starts, runs, and gets me A to B and back to A with whatever plugs it has in it. Guess no body would pass the test of leaded gas, huh? (additives wouldn't count.)
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Judging requires standards, otherwise it quickly devolves into popularity contests or undocumented or undocumentable opinions. And yes some folks take a sense of pride in “knowing” more than others, sometimes voicing opinions tactlessly.
But there is a place for the standards, and for restoring cars. that standard is factory issue (or should be). That is where I found value in this club, the kind instruction on mechanical and aesthetic particulars really helped when I got mine and was curious. And I want to know what is correct. Sometimes and for various reasons, economic, part availability or scarcity, reliability, personal preference I will knowingly depart. And again, there is value in knowing from what I am departing. So thanks to those who have been in the trenches with this information and willingness to share.
I go to few shows where there is judging, doesn’t matter to me, but it does bring some cars out that would otherwise remain in garage. And on that subject, there is a lot of interest in original (or long used but unrestored) cars evidencing their patina (like I do). Perhaps merely a grouping or recognition of this class of car will engender some interest.
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All the car shows I go too. They do not know what it is..
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Do they have the "bullseye" circle on the lens or the aiming nibs that came on the later bulbs? They must have been about the same time that Willlys vehicles switched from six to twelve volts. 1956?
They do have a small circle in the center with the "GE" logo in it, and there's 3 nibs on the perimeter of the face. They're also stamped with "6V" in yellow ink on the lens as well as the sticker, so they were making sure to avoid 6V/12V mix ups.
These would be good replacements for any six volt car but they were made later than the K-F era and would not be correct for judging a Kaiser or Frazer.