To judge our cars or not.

[5Hud]

 I have attended national meets held by car clubs that do and do not include judging, I feel the judging does add an air of competition that does upset or disappoint too many participants to make it worthwhile. These days we need to do all we can to maintain members enjoyment level. An available set of guidelines for car owners to follow if they desire would serve well as I don't think a lack of formal judging diminishes the quality of restorations.
 The KF club judges do a fine job of a difficult task, I wonder if the time required for this is better spent kicking tires, seeing the sights of the area where the meet is held, enjoying the fellowship of members and engaging with interested members of the public.

[MarkH]

Now you start to get it.  Often the people who want to be judged are those who have sunk $$$$$ into their cars (be it a K-f/Willys product or some other make) either through purchase price or purchase price plus additional restoration/upgrade work.  They want to get some assurance that if something happens to their vehicle they can recoup their investment just like a home owner does with their dwelling.  Insurance companies deal with facts and want to be sure they are underwriting for a legitimate value.  The results from club judging helps the appraiser for the insurance company to get a "warm and fuzzy" about the coverage amount requested.

Joefrazer & I gave first hand knowledge of insurance companies take on this earlier in this thread, now try looking at it like this.

Number 1 value on my Aero has been stuck at around 15K for decades. Let's say it's finished & I take it to a meet and somehow get judged at 100 points and meet the clubs assessment that it's in #1 condition. Using the above logic, I can take that trophy to an insurance company and now get a 15K policy.

Problem is, it cost more than #1 value to do a full restoration. Fortunately the insurance company(s) recognizes this and will write for higher than "book" value. My company readily agreed to value my car considerably higher than #1, wrote the policy, and it's still in pieces!

They never asked how it judged, how it would judge, how original it is or is going to be, or even if I belonged to a car club.

[Roadmaster49]

EDIT: Holy smoke, whoever said there's another jake pegged it. There were 5 pages in this thread when I wrote the response above, only 3 after I posted. Dejavu all over again
[/quote]

Bustedwing's comments gone. 

I never thought of the insurance issue as a motivation to receive an award or acknowledgement from a club. 

[G.B. (All Vinyl Dragon)]

Antique Auto Insurance that I have has hoped I was a Member of an Antique Car Club.
So Our this Club,Local Club Geronimo. It’s with the National AACA. This has been My Clubs.

I always say The K/F/W Club means The most because They Know Our Vehicle’s the Best.

I been to 3 of Our Club National, Wichita 1st. , St. Louis 2nd, Long Beach Queen Mary - Spruce Goose got 1st. In Dragon # 7. Plus Lots of Reginals.

I been to Two AACA Reginals 12 to 15 Years apart & Got Second Jr. both Times.  I told Our Local Members this was like The Preservation trophy. Been all over the Country & still same points.
 
I still on 2,500 Mile a Year. But when I get to Our Club Nationals I would go over. They said You’re covered, but keep All Docementation.

[Gordie]

Judging conflicts at our last National meet have caused our chief judge to resign as well as the loss of a valuable member all because the accurate judging standards were not observed by some of the judges.  Judging standards or assembly standards, whatever we want to call them, are critical for accurate judging.  We have judging standards for all of our Kaiser and Frazer models but they need to be followed by the judges and chief judge.  The judging standards are published in Jim Betts circlekf website.  I hope that we can form a committee to finish formatting all of this information so that every owner of a Kaiser or Frazer can have access to the information and it will help us all to make our cars as original as we want them to be.  Who would like to be on that committee?  It will be a valuable thing for the club to have.

[Bulletin Editor]

THE MIDWEST DIVISION DID SO A FEW YEARS AGO AT A NATIONAL AND MOST LOVED IT. 

Terry, I can't find anything to support/confirm your statement. 

Former Midwest Director Dick Weidinger twice submitted proposals (different years) to eliminate judging at the Nationals. Both times it was voted down. As I recall, a back-door attempt was made to eliminate judging at the 2013 National in Shipshewana by charging $15 per car for judging; it was over-ruled and judging was held as usual.

Since that time no new proposals have been submitted to remove/amend By-Laws Article 6, Section 1 which requires judging at Nationals. Until such time as another proposal is submitted for discussion and vote by the Membership, judging is required. However, a member may select not to have their vehicle judged at National.

Judging at Division or Region meets is optional, and in recent years most have elected not to judge.

[Terry T]

I did not see you walking around the field at that National, so how can you speak about what was said?
QED

[Bulletin Editor]

I did not see you walking around the field at that National, so how can you speak about what was said?
QED

Terry, I'm not sure if you are responding to me, but in case you are here's my reply: whether or not you saw me "walking around the field" has absolutely no bearing on the FACTS I presented: Judging is still required by our By-Laws and has been done at all Nationals including those hosted by the Midwest Division. 

[joefrazer]

Why are the judging standards not on the official club website?

[Terry T]

I did not see you walking around the field at that National, so how can you speak about what was said?
QED

Terry, I'm not sure if you are responding to me, but in case you are here's my reply: whether or not you saw me "walking around the field" has absolutely no bearing on the FACTS I presented: Judging is still required by our By-Laws and has been done at all Nationals including those hosted by the Midwest Division. 
[/quote

yep--I am responding to you
the "most" were those walking around the parking lot and functions at the National
since you were not there, you had no opportunity to hear them
those there shared their thinking--psst-I was one of them
didn't feel the need to document it for your edification

[Bulletin Editor]

yep--I am responding to you
the "most" were those walking around the parking lot and functions at the National
since you were not there, you had no opportunity to hear them
those there shared their thinking--psst-I was one of them
didn't feel the need to document it for your edification

Terry, if you're referring to 2013 National in Shipshewana, I was there ... and, maybe not at the same time as you, but I did "walk around the field."

Yes, some people don't like/want judging but that does not change the FACT that judging was done there - and continues to be done. 

Every year members have the opportunity to submit proposals to amend the Constitution & By-Laws. If you feel so strongly against judging, why haven't you ever submitted a proposal? (FYI: my question is rhetorical - no need for you to reply)

[MarkH]

Why are the judging standards not on the official club website?

That is an excellent suggestion that would not only result in build standards being openly available to every club member, but end the perceptions of "subjectivity" from some who choose to be judged.

[Terry T]

for those that have watched "Seinfield"..."so you know how to take the reservation..you just don't keep the reservation".

so---you may know how to post the judging sheets, you just don't use...

[jake]

What happens if no cars show up?

This was a HOA meet in 2016...

I was picking up a car part and join them for the day..

[Gordie]

Why are the judging standards not on the official club website?

The judging guidelines are presently available on Jim Betts website circlekf.com.  Hopefully a committee can be formed to prepare them for use in judging and restoring our cars.  We can not continue to judge the cars based on opinion or memories. Guidelines or build standards and changes will be available for each year and model of the Kaiser-Frazer cars made in 1946 through 1955 and to include the Carabela's made in Argentina.