Author Topic: To judge our cars or not.  (Read 15478 times)

Gordie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
    • MSN Messenger - gordies1@verizon.net
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Gordie
    • View Profile
    • Email
To judge our cars or not.
« on: December 28, 2018, 01:48:48 PM »
KFOCI has offered judging since its inception and judging is written into our bi-laws.  Our judging system has had a rocky history with untrained early judges making decisions based on memory instead of fact and an early chief judge that would guarantee a gold award if the judged car was done in his shop.  Many disappointed car owners left the club over bad judging decisions and never came back.  Today we are seeing more and more modified cars on the judging field and they mostly get a gold award if they are well done but they cannot be judged on authenticity which was the original focus of the club.  Our Spring 2018 issue of the Quarterly has an excellent story about our judging system written by Chief Judge Charlotte Dayton who does a fine job every year.  The problem is that we are getting more and more modified cars and Willys products which we want to join us and we enjoy seeing them.  We just do not have the expertise to judge them for authenticity  Today's fuel which is ever changing is no longer compatible with the original fuel systems in our cars.  Maybe it is time to encourage all kinds of Kaiser-Willys products and judge them on longest distance traveled or a hard luck trophy or what ever non competitive award is appropriate and not expect the meet hosts to continue to provide expensive trophies to cars that we really do not judge for authenticity.  We have developed fine judging guidelines for members who want their cars to look like the day that they left the assembly line.  Today if you expect to drive that car you must modify the fuel system to run on modern gasoline and probably install an electric fuel pump and seat belts for safety which are modifications that are approved by our judging system but are not as the car left the factory.  Modern tires can be found that look like originals but they are much safer and are not made like the originals which are not available.  We have very good judges but they are few in number and not all are available at all of the National meets and we have no system to train new ones for the future.  Should we just enjoy all of the cars as they are or continue judging an ever changing group of vehicles that we are not really qualified to judge?  We need your thoughts on judging so that we can continue the fine activities that we have always enjoyed.  What changes would you like to see in our judging system?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 12:05:02 PM by Gordie »
Member #3151 Since June 1974
Vice President K.F.O.C.I. 2013-2017  President 2018-2019
'47 Graham Paige Frazer                                   
'51 Kaiser Deluxe club coupe       
'51 Kaiser customized convertible 
'52 Allstate serial#39
'53 Aero Eagle
'54 Aero Eagle Custom

joefrazer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4043
    • View Profile
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2018, 02:23:42 PM »
I think a set of assembly standards - note that I did not say judging standards - should be documented for those who want their cars to most closely resemble how they left the factory. For those who want a car “judged” it would be done as a service rather than a competition, which is how it’s viewed today.

The service would help an owner fine tune their restoration without the pressure of competing against the car beside theirs.

With diminishing resources...fewer experienced judges...it’s time to revisit the entire authentication process.

Feedback is welcome.

Fid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3854
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2018, 02:25:54 PM »
Quote
Our judging system has had a rocky history with untrained early judges making decisions based on memory instead of fact...

It's not judging that's the problem, it's lack of Judging standards.  It's not possible to bring something up to standard when there's no standard to compare.

I (and several others knowledgeable) have offered and provided input several times in the past decade or so only to see it go nowhere.

In the old days when there was first, second and third place awards I didn't care for it as it pitted owners/cars against one another.
The Bronze, Silver, Gold is much better as the car is rated on its own merits as opposed to someone deciding "mine's better than yours..."  which only causes conflict.

I'm still for judging only because it gives me (and anyone else interested) an idea of what needs to be done to make my cars truly authentic, not because I want a $15 trophy.
I'm anxious to hear (read) what others have to say.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 04:22:53 PM by Fid »
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

Need your classic car radio repaired? I repair vacuum tube radios

Fid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3854
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2018, 02:28:04 PM »
joefrazer, we were both typing/posting at the same time! It appears we are saying essentially the same thing.
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

Need your classic car radio repaired? I repair vacuum tube radios

G.B. (All Vinyl Dragon)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 670
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2018, 02:46:06 PM »
Fid,
You saved Me a Lot Time & said it Well. We added modified for Folks not wanting Original.
We still need a Standard for Original for a Balance. Plus The respect of All the Members that keeped The Original Standard. Studied History to Keep it Correct.

We have adjusted it That I’m not trying to compete with another’s Vehicle, but Improving My Restoration. I like Preservation if 5-10 Years You Have Same Points.

 More Later.

 joefrazer, Your Correct to. We have to have a respectful Standard of Original.
Ah , a good reason for More later.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 02:54:21 PM by G.B. (All Vinyl Dragon) »
Research on All Vinyl Dragons & Dragon List.
G.B. Bonham LM  K.F.O.C. Club.
Also: Vintage Electronics, TV, Stereo, Radio, & Broadcasting.
Looking for Kaye Halbert TV, 27 inch screen mid 50's
made in Culver City, Calif.

Gordie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
    • MSN Messenger - gordies1@verizon.net
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Gordie
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2018, 03:11:01 PM »
Those are all good ideas!  Keep them coming and we will make things happen.
Member #3151 Since June 1974
Vice President K.F.O.C.I. 2013-2017  President 2018-2019
'47 Graham Paige Frazer                                   
'51 Kaiser Deluxe club coupe       
'51 Kaiser customized convertible 
'52 Allstate serial#39
'53 Aero Eagle
'54 Aero Eagle Custom

Terry T

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
  • EX--Editor Darrin Newsletter/Registry
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2018, 04:41:18 PM »
Quote
Our judging system has had a rocky history with untrained early judges making decisions based on memory instead of fact...

It's not judging that's the problem, it's lack of Judging standards.  It's not possible to bring something up to standard when there's no standard to compare.

I (and several others knowledgeable) have offered and provided input several times in the past decade or so only to see it go nowhere.

In the old days when there was first, second and third place awards I didn't care for it as it pitted owners/cars against one another.
The Bronze, Silver, Gold is much better as the car is rated on its own merits as opposed to someone deciding "mine's better than yours..."  which only causes conflict.

I'm still for judging only because it gives me (and anyone else interested) an idea of what needs to be done to make my cars truly authentic, not because I want a $15 trophy.
I'm anxious to hear (read) what others have to say.

FOR THOSE THAT REMEMBVER AND WILL ADMIT--I WAS BASICALY RAILROADED WHEN I INCLUDED IN MY FIRST DARRIN NEWSWLETTER, DETAILED PROPOSED JUDING STANDARDS.  I WAS EMPHATICALLY TOLD THAT WE HAVE 'EXPERTS' WHO KNOW HOW THE CARS WERE BUILT.  I HAVE DARRIN NEWSLETTERS FROM 50 YEARS AGO THAT HAD THESE SAME COMPLAINTS AND OWNERS LEAVING THE CLUB BECAUSE OF NOTHING CONSISTENT IN JUDGING.  I THINK IT WAY TOO LATE TO CORRECT THIS SHIP WITH NEW STANDARDS AND VOTE TO ELIMINATE  JUDING.  THE MIDWEST DIVISION DID SO A FEW YEARS AGO AT A NATIONAL AND MOST LOVED IT.  CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION AND BE DONE WITH IT!!!!

r1lark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2018, 05:42:34 PM »
Does KFOCI allow 'Display Only' cars on the show field for folks that aren't interested in having their K-F product judged, but would like to show it off at a National Meet?
Paul
Winston-Salem NC
Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at:  www.studebakerskytop.com

Gordie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
    • MSN Messenger - gordies1@verizon.net
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Gordie
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2018, 05:56:17 PM »
Absolutely!  As our chief judge explained in her article in the Quarterly that everyone who registers gets a judging form.  If you do not want your car to be judged just mark it "Do Not Judge".  If you are not registered you can not park in the judging area.
Member #3151 Since June 1974
Vice President K.F.O.C.I. 2013-2017  President 2018-2019
'47 Graham Paige Frazer                                   
'51 Kaiser Deluxe club coupe       
'51 Kaiser customized convertible 
'52 Allstate serial#39
'53 Aero Eagle
'54 Aero Eagle Custom

darrin502

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 477
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2018, 12:00:20 AM »
Judging seems to be a problem at all of the conventions I have attended. People can and do get very upset with judging. I have always had modified cars and worst of all I have modified Darrins for some reason most members think that modifying a Darrin is sac religious. I have been modifying Darrins since I was 16 years old when I bought my first Darrin in 1961 Which is #60 and is the yellow drag race car. The other 2 Darrins are also modified and I am in the process of restoring 2 more Darrins that will be original. I have always had my cars judged but I am not in favor of judging. I have said that I think that we loose a lot of members due to judging. It seems to be something that causes the most anger in car owners. Judging can be very subjective and therefore not always understood.
I think the idea of having cars judged or opting out seems to work. The only problem comes with modified cars. How many mods make it modified. We need rules for that. Too many rules can cause more problems. We have a social club it should be fun sometimes judging can take the fun out of it.
It definitely needs to be discussed.
Lee
LM #1068
1954 Darrin # 103
1954 Darrin #  60
1954 Darrin #  51
1954 Darrin #  91
1954 Darrin # 394
1954 Darrin # 193
1959 Corvette
1968 Corvette
1968 Mustang
1959 Austin Healy Bug Eye Sprite
2002 Limited Edition Camaro

joefrazer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4043
    • View Profile
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2018, 08:17:56 AM »
The HET (Hudson Club) explicitly states in their By-Laws (Article III) that there will be no judging at any of their meets. They recognized long ago that judging created friction within the membership and wanted to, instead, focus on the main tenet of a club - its people. To the HET, bringing a car to a meet is encouraged, but being there yourself is more important. Personally, I attend meets to both renew old friendships and to look at the cars on display - especially if I'm working on a KF and want to see how someone else put theirs together.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think it's important that the KFOCI has a set of standards documented that anyone restoring a car can use to ensure their car meets the basic rule of "how the car left the factory". Our chief judge and team have been working to assemble a set of judging standards and if the decision is made to eliminate formal judging at mets, then that work could, and should, be aimed at documenting build standards.

Bulletin Editor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2018, 08:21:42 AM »
How many separate classes are there within the KFCOCI judging?

See page 24 of the Fall 2018 Quarterly
Barbara Mueller
1952 Henry J Corsair deLuxe
KFOCI Secretary  secretary@kfclub.com
Bulletin Editor  bulletin@kfclub.com

joefrazer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4043
    • View Profile
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2018, 10:05:00 AM »
I'm recrafting this response to more generically speak to the subject of vehicle insurability. I work for a major insurer and for us, when it comes to covering a vehicle, doing so for a modern vehicle is more straightforward than determining whether to insure an older one. Most standard carriers (Progressive, Geico, State Farm, etc) have a complex algorithm that determines a vehicle's insurability. The vehicle itself, its location, driver's information and coverages desired are some of the major ingredients.

For older vehicles like ours, an extra step may be necessary - the vehicle's value. Typically, the owner is asked to provide a value for the vehicle and if the insurer thinks the number is acceptable, and all of the other criteria is met, then the vehicle is covered. If the value is not within expectations an appraisal may be ordered where an independent third party is asked to examine the vehicle. The owner may be asked to provide additional documentation, such as receipts for work performed, to support the value declared (called stated value or stated amount in the industry) for use in developing a rate (the premium charged) as well for use in the event of a loss. Judging sheets are not used as part of the valuation process when there's a loss. I had the opportunity to speak to one of our generalists, who handles antique vehicle claims, about this and his response was that club judging is done by folks who aren't professionals so they are not used as a source for determining a vehicle's value. Disclaimer - that's how we handle this where I work but I can't speak for the industry as a whole.

Circling back to the original question, standards should be assembled for our vehicles. If there are those who wish to use them to have their vehicle judged at a KF meet, then the opportunity should be made available to them. In years past, emphasis was put on judging and folks spent a lot of time prepping their cars for the main event. Today, the emphasis should be on the gathering of folks sharing a common interest in the cars who renew old friendships and make new ones. If the parking lot is full of KFW vehicles and some of the owners want their cars judged, that's great, and if it isn't that's OK too.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 08:42:52 AM by joefrazer »

MarkH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1083
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2018, 10:18:22 AM »
My insurance company (American Family) has limited the replacement value on my car because it's not yet completed. Not as much as I have in it but far above #1 book value.
Once it's finished, they will increase the agreed value with a valuation from an appraiser or restorer. For me, they said that can be the owner of a local shop that puts out high dollar customs, or even the guy that paints their cars (and mine). There was no mention of originality, something a guy with a 6 figure custom could never attain.
I'm not going to have any trouble getting a full replacement cost evaluation. Then it becomes a balance between how high of a premium to pay versus out of pocket replacement risk.


Fully restored '54 Aero Lark
Rusty '58 Austin Healey 100-Six
Barely running'74 Chevelle Malibu

G.B. (All Vinyl Dragon)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 670
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: To judge our cars or not.
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2018, 03:05:42 PM »
Yes, You would Think Judging standard or an assembly would be the same. But Tires example ? Some come out with WW on Top of the Line. Dragons should have 710-15 with 4 inch WW. But next time You needed Tires 3 inch something but still 710-15 Size.

It was We could go with 3 something & It would Pass. Now I Hear back to 4 inch.

OK, this is Correct & You can get Goodyear 4 inch & that’s what was on Our Original, Got Home Movies to Prove it. Does Anyone clean WW in Our Club.

Research on All Vinyl Dragons & Dragon List.
G.B. Bonham LM  K.F.O.C. Club.
Also: Vintage Electronics, TV, Stereo, Radio, & Broadcasting.
Looking for Kaye Halbert TV, 27 inch screen mid 50's
made in Culver City, Calif.