Under hood standards

[Roadmaster49]

I am reading some of the other comments in real time so pardon me if my comments don't catch all of Jack's and other good points. 

Joe Frazer's Standards are excellent but I agree these will be lost over time as the post falls down. In the AACA forum world, such an informative post can become what we call "a sticky" and it is permanently placed at the top of the appropriate Sub-Title.  Perhaps we can do that.

[Dragon]

I noticed the statement (if discrepancy in judging comes up we need to show the judge authenticity) keeps being mentioned.  At this year's convention the owner of the vehicle was not permitted to talk to the Judges.  There was a paper passed out at the business meeting about Judging and one of the rules on it was "Do Not talk to the Judge while they are judging your car".

[Corsairdeluxe]

Buried bones. Long ago I spoke to Fred about restoring a Henry J. He guaranteed me a First Place. I asked how he could be so sure; He replied, "Don't worry about it". Judges in KFOCI are much like the English Crown, endowed with Devine insights.

 A true KFOCI Judge story, albeit not at a national meet. At a Tom Hoffman’s annual Hurrah in SOCAl. I brought my 52 ALLSTATE. Judging began in the morning. About noon Rudy showed up in his convertible. The awards were presented after lunch. I won the peoples choice by having the most votes . Tom got out a second peoples choice award and gave it to Rudy saying he was sure that if Rudy had arrived earlier he would have had the most votes. I dropped my award on the ground, drove off and never again attended a SOCAL event.

[mbflemingkf]

I was at the Business Meeting and my understanding was the Board was considering cutting back on Quarterly's this next year to save money.  I didn't hear that the Board had made the decision to eliminate all Quarterly's for a year but that could have been the selective hearing my wife always complains about!

My personal opinion is no publications = no members.  Most members are unable or choose not to attend the National.  They rely on the publications to keep them plugged in and to justify the $35/year membership. 

Maybe our President will have something on this and the state of the clubs affairs/finances in the August Bulletin?

Just one guys opinion who's been in the organization for 30 years.

[joefrazer]

Regarding the Quarterly publication and what was discussed at the national meet, detail around the decision will be part of a future publication. The club's officers would rather use that forum than this one, just so we're sure the same message gets to the entire membership.

[pnw_oldmags]

Sounds like I best keep scanning and posting Old Quarterlies to give everyone some interesting to read for the next year or so.

[Terry T]

Without any written detailed standards, the person restoring the vehicle has to rely on conversations with others who claim to know what is correct.
If you are a new owner, and new to the club, your first experience with judging could be very disappointing.  Maybe some minute detail was missed in the countless conversations that one had with the experts.
Try, try again, hoping to get it right.

[Fid]

When people pay more money for less product, it usually results in less people purchasing that product.

[Roadmaster49]

Without any written detailed standards, the person restoring the vehicle has to rely on conversations with others who claim to know what is correct.
If you are a new owner, and new to the club, your first experience with judging could be very disappointing.  Maybe some minute detail was missed in the countless conversations that one had with the experts.
Try, try again, hoping to get it right.

As stated by others, so many new members buy a car being told that it is correct and will win an award, bring it to a show with that intention.  People take getting a small plastic trophy too seriously. I am more interested in the authenticity as these cars are artifacts of a by-gone era and we should do our best to preserve them, awards be damned.

For my 49 Virginian, I am using the car itself as my template. Being in the hobby a million years and having owned well over 225 cars, I know original from replacement. My interior is in rags but original and so on and samples of the original fabrics will be retained for the eventual future buyer, if and when I sell it.

I may not be able to 100% duplicate the interior or the correct "tint" of turquiose but at least I have what the factory put in there to begin with.

I really read Joe F's posts carefully. I am going to print them off and compare to what I have and try to recreate the engine compartment authentically.

[Terry T]

Good point about originality.
Our judging system does not give credit for original parts.

For example, at the National in TN, a Darrin was giged one point for a few small chips in the original, but polished, wind wings.  I would have given back the point for being an original part.

But, on the other hand, no points were deducted for the windshield that was a repro, and not a PPG repro.  The Darrins were produced with PPG windshields, not Viracon or others.  I would then have deducted points for "non KF"!

[Fid]

People take getting a small plastic trophy too seriously. I am more interested in the authenticity as these cars are artifacts of a by-gone era and we should do our best to preserve them, awards be damned.

I totally agree. I want to get my cars "right" because it's a labor of love and passion, not because I expect a reward of some type. If I ever get to that point, lock me up.

[G.B. (All Vinyl Dragon)]

People take getting a small plastic trophy too seriously. I am more interested in the authenticity as these cars are artifacts of a by-gone era and we should do our best to preserve them, awards be damned.

I totally agree. I want to get my cars "right" because it's a labor of love and passion, not because I expect a reward of some type. If I ever get to that point, lock me up.

I feel the same Way...

On My All Vinyl Dragon I got Second Jr. at AACA & 15 Years later got the Same. This made Me feel good that I showed, drove, & participated in many events with Local, KFOC,AACA Club meets. I could of not do any Shows & keep it in the garage.

Like before mentioned You do not talk to a Judge at A.A.C.A. till They ask You. They first wanted to know about the White Top not being Bambu ?  You must have documentation to Pass. I did.  One man said as a suggestion that light scratches on the wind shield from My wipers I should replace it. Then another Judge said wait , the K.F.O.C. Club is a driver to a meet club not trailer , so they gave Me back the Points for the Lt scratches.

K.F.O.C. I got First, Second. Then did some improvements to preserve My vehicle & got back to First during this same time period.

I told many, It was more important to Me that I do well with the K.F.O.C. Judging because they know Our Product the Best.
 We need to keep this standard to be a fair club for all Members...

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

I had suggested "bonus points" for the original factory type part such as Auto-Lite branded (original lettering, etc) plugs, correct branding on glass, etc.  Not everyone can be either at the right place at the right time to stumble across original type stuff or the original stuff honestly cannot be found.  That would help offset minor dings and condition related items.

Like all my other judging suggestions over the years, that went into the circular file.

[vettelang]

This discussion is driving me crazy. The reason I joined was to have access to information to correctly restore my Willys Aero. For my Corvette the National Corvette Restorers Society has a booklet that provides guidance on finishes (flat, semi gloss, gloss, black zinc, cad, aluminum, natural, ... fastener head markings, etc) When I am going to the work of blasting the part and refinishing it, why not make it right.

To address the original versus aftermarket question, it is a simple matter to have deducts for originality and deducts for condition leading to a final score.

I am very grateful for Joe Frazers effort to give us this information. As I offered when I joined the group, if anyone wants help to pull this together I am willing to help - I just cannot wait forty years for it.

[Aeroman]

Radical thought here:

We are all club members and therefore volunteers. Why not each of us put together something similar to what "Joe Frazer" did in an earlier entry to this thread, but for the cars that we are knowledgeable about. Include footnotes indicating K-F, K-W and W-O documents that corroborate your claims. Photographs of documented original cars also help.

It is so much easier to do the job and apologize later than to ask for permission and never get the job done. We don't really need club permission to do this, we are all amatuer (and some of us professional) historians. We can do this without club authorization for now.

Jack, can you send me a copy of the format that you suggested we use, and send it to anyone who requests it. I will begin re-formatting the Willys Aero section that I did a few years back. Even if there is duplication of car coverage, that's all right, we'll "edit" it all later.

Will this get me evicted from the club? HA! I always was an anarchist.