Author Topic: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)  (Read 33255 times)

serialnumberplate

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Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« on: March 14, 2009, 12:25:47 PM »
Hello,
I collect serial number plates (www.serialnumberplate.com). I wanted to ask for:
1. Help to decode the numbers on these plates (paint, trim, options etc).
2. Can somebody tell what means the "CAT. 216" stamping on Allstate plate? Does it have any relation to serial number?
I hope this information will be helpful to K-F enthusiasts.
Kaiser: http://serialnumberplate.com/index.php?type=show_id&id=2792
Frazer: http://serialnumberplate.com/index.php?type=show_id&id=2788
Henry J: http://serialnumberplate.com/index.php?type=show_id&id=2789
Allstate: http://serialnumberplate.com/index.php?type=show_id&id=2803
Thank you.

Fid

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2009, 05:34:36 PM »
On the Henry J tag,  Model K513 indicates it is a standard (4 cylinder) model. The '4' under "Body" indicates it's a two-door (as all Henry Js were). Paint code 110 indicates the color is 'Cardinal' which was a deep maroon. The trim code of 3401-1 indicates the upholstery is 'Armor-weave gray.' The number '1' under DR (believed to stand for 'Delivery Region') means the car was shipped to a US dealer. The '4' under "TR" indicates it has an overdrive transmission (a '2' would mean it was standard transmission without overdrive, automatic trans was never an option on the Henry J).  Since there is no number under the "AG" section, that means the car, as many four cylinder 1951 Henry Js, was not fitted with an "Accessory Group."  This means the Henry J would not have a trunk lid, horn ring, dual horns (under the hood), cigar lighter, full wheel covers, or bumper gaurds.  All deluxe Henry Js were fitted with an Accessory Group and many four cylinder models were too but this one wasn't. The numbers under "Sched" and "Item" refer to the schedule (date of manufacture) and item number on the line that day. I don't know how to decifer the Sched and Item number but hopefully someone will come on here and provide a further explanation.  It would've looked just like this one -


Regarding the Allstate tag, model 340 indicates it is a 1953, deluxe (6 cylinder) model. The body 4 indicates two-door sedan, paint 208 is 'Anchor Gray' and Trim Code 5620-A was unknown at the time the KFOC handbook was put together.  'I.P.' indicates "Interior Paint" and 32 indicates Persian Gray (as most '53 Henry Js and Allstates were).  'DR' again means US, 'TR' 4 indicates overdrive transmission.  'AG' 45 means the car was fitted with Accessory Group 45 which is still unknown but it likely meant it had a trunk lid, full wheel covers, cigar lighter, horn ring, vacuum boosted wipers and likely more options. No information regarding 'CAT. NO 216' but I'd hazard a guess that since it was sold as a Sears product, it may refer to the 'Catalog item number', the number the car was listed as in the Sears catalog. I've also heard conflicting reports that the car was available through the Sears catalog and other reports that it wasn't. Perhaps someone else can shed more light on that. 

The Kaiser tag, model 531 indicates 1953 Deluxe (the Deluxe was actually the low-end Kaiser in 1953, one step below a Manhattan, two steps below a Dragon). Body '1' means it was a 4 door sedan, paint 395 is 'Tropical Green Metallic' and trim '5002-A' is 'Chukkar Tan Stockholm & Burma Vinyl'.  'I.P' is interior paint, can't find what 34 indicates as far as color. 'DR' is US delivery and the 'TR' (transmission code) 6 means it was a three speed manual with overdrive (Kaiser used different TR codes than Henry J). The '31' under 'AG' indicates Accessory Group '31' so the car was originally fitted with a horn ring, narrow chrome moulding around the bottom, signal lights (which were still not standard on cars in 1953) and an oil-bath air cleaner.

The Frazer tag, model 495 indicates 1949 Frazer standard (the fancy one was a 496 Manhattan). Body '1' means it was a 4 door sedan, paint 155 is 'Dubonnet' which I think was a blue but I'm not sure. Trim '516' is 'Dubonnet stadium tweed and Bedford' (again, I believe it meant a dark blue). 'DR' is 1 or US delivery and the 'TR' (transmission code) 1 means it was a three speed manual without overdrive (Frazer used different TR codes than Henry J), which really surprises me as I thought overdrive was standard on all Frazers. The '5' above 'AG' indicates Accessory Group '5' which for some reason, was kept confidential by KF.
Hope this helps - Good luck.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 12:56:22 PM by Fid »
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

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serialnumberplate

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2009, 12:55:08 PM »
Regarding the Allstate tag, model 340 indicates it is a 1953, deluxe (6 cylinder) model...
...No information regarding 'CAT. NO 216' but I'd hazard a guess that since it was sold as a Sears product, it may refer to the 'Catalog item number', the number the car was listed as in the Sears catalog.
Thank you for such complete decoding.
I agree with the opinion about the "catalog number", the question appeared because this stamping is located where the "BODY NUMBER" on Frazers and Henry Js plates usually is.
I just may add some info from the 4th edition of Standard Catalog of American Cars (1997).
The 1953 six-cylinder Allstate is listed as "Model Number A340, Body/Style Number 215".
Since this catalog is full of mistakes, it's very likely that the model number was 216 instead of 215, or it was a modification.

Fid

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2009, 04:16:31 PM »
Starting in 1951, Kaisers and Henry Js had a seperate body tag in addition to the data and serial (VIN) tags. The serial tag with the VIN which is between the door hinges, the data tag, which is what you posted, and then a body tag which is a small tag just behind the data tag (looking from the front). I snapped this photo of a Henry J data plate and body tag in a salvage yard a few years ago. You can see the small body tag, behind the data tag in the photo.
.  The body tag contains the body number and begins with the model number, in this case, K5144 (1951 Henry J deluxe). One thing that's kind of cool about that is on some of the 1951 cars that were reserialed as 1952s (Henry J Vagabonds and Kaiser Virginians) they may have a K51x on the body tag but a K52x on the other two tags. I have a '52 Henry J Vagabond that's like that. It has '52 model numbers on the serial and data tags but a '51 model number on the body tag.   
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 06:43:41 PM by Fid »
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

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serialnumberplate

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2009, 02:22:12 PM »
Starting in 1951, Kaisers and Henry Js had a seperate body tag in addition to the data and serial (VIN) tags. The serial tag with the VIN which is between the door hinges...
Thank you for the photo.
I have never seen the door post tag. Can you post it's photo or the picture of the tag location?

One thing that's kind of cool about that is on some of the 1951 cars that were reserialed as 1952s (Henry J Vagabonds and Kaiser Virginians) they may have a K51x on the body tag but a K52x on the other two tags. I have a '52 Henry J Vagabond that's like that. It has '52 model numbers on the serial and data tags but a '51 model number on the body tag.   
I've read that they were sending the plates from the factory to dealers, who had to replace them manually. Imagine how many mistakes were made!  :)
As for Allstate, I am willing to see more plates with CAT NO, maybe some owners can post a photo?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 02:31:42 PM by serialnumberplate »

Fid

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2009, 06:00:20 PM »
Here's the door tag off that same Henry J from Windy Hill Auto (now long gone). It was difficult to photograph but  you'll notice that the body number and serial number are close together.

There was a guy who used to work for KF and he attended a KF Club Meet I hosted here in 2005. He explained how he went around to all the dealers and they waited till everyone went home, pulled the '51s into the shop, blacked out all the windows of shop, locked the doors and installed Continental spare tires, black plastic hood ornaments, Vagabond/Virginian scripts and changed the tags to make the cars '52s. Some of these guys may have been a bit lazy as I own a '52 Henry J Vagabond that did not get the Continental spare. The fact that the rear stone shield is spot welded to the body is evidence it was never changed.  I found this out last summer when I was contemplating intalling a Continental kit. If the sheilds are welded on, then they were never removed for the spare tires so mine never got one. It does have a K513 body number and a K523 serial number and the black plastic and 'Vagabond' scripting but the guy must've said "hell with it" when it came time to install the tire! They must've figured up in Bemidji, MN, no one would ever know!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 09:36:15 PM by Fid »
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

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Gordie

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 08:04:35 PM »
That is a great story!  It makes sense too as the cars could not be recalled to the factory for all of that work although the factory probably did the same thing on the last '51 cars before they got sent to dealers or distributors.
Member #3151 Since June 1974
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'47 Graham Paige Frazer                                   
'51 Kaiser Deluxe club coupe       
'51 Kaiser customized convertible 
'52 Allstate serial#39
'53 Aero Eagle
'54 Aero Eagle Custom

serialnumberplate

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 01:04:17 PM »
Here's the door tag off that same Henry J...
Thank you for the photo again and, of course, for the story.
I have found another Allstate plate on the internet: http://www.henryjcars.com/hjc49/eden/eden.html
Neither CAT NO nor BODY NUMBER at all.
P.S. Sorry, I can't upload images for some reason.

serialnumberplate

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2009, 03:22:37 PM »
Long ago I wanted to ask experts about two interesting plates.
One is Kaiser Traveller, other is Henry J.
I wonder if the Kaiser is fake. What are the codes' breakdown?
Text - http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Kaiser/
Plate image - http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Kaiser/1954KaiserTraveler-a.jpg

The Henry J convertible is fake, no doubt. What was the original car?
Text - http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/HenryJ/
Plate image - http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/HenryJ/HenryJ-NamePlate.jpg

Fid

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2009, 05:22:56 PM »
The Kaiser tag appears to be authentic to me.  It is model K532 which is a 1953 Kaiser Manhattan. Body 5 indicates it is a hatchback, trim 888 is factory special, IP (interior paint) is 34 which I believe is metallic gray but I'm not certain on that one. DR is US delivery, TR = 7 means Hydramatic, AG 32 means it was fitted with Accessory Group 32 - Bumper bridge bullets, full wheel covers, tail pipe extension, tenite plastic steering wheel, electric wipers and clock. The 0 above one of the "M" headings likely indicates what modifications were made.  The SO - K1439 , indicates it was a "Special Order" number 1439.
The Henry J tag is authentic and indicates nothing out of the ordinary.  K513, 1951 Henry J standard (four cylinder), Body 4 two door , paint 370 is mariner gray, trim code 3457 - caribbean plaid (I have one like that), DR 1 is US delivery, TR 4 is overdrive transmission, AG 17 is Accessory Group 17 which includes a trunk lid (for those who think only Deluxe model Henry Js had trunk lids here is more proof that is not true), vacuum boosted fuel pump, opening vent windows, fold down rear seat. If the car that this tag is on was a convertible, it was not done at the factory. There were some dealers that converted some Henry Js to convertibles but since they were dealers, the tags probably did not change.
We've got Edgar Kaiser's custom built Henry J here and it has  paint code 888 (factory special), trim code 999 (factory special), and SPEC FO (special factory order) number HJ 50.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 08:59:54 PM by Fid »
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

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ben-tex

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2009, 09:14:15 AM »
After I checked your pics I realized this was the car that Jack Mueller had written about in the club bulletin. I recognized a lot of your pics ;)
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1951 Kaiser Deluxe
1951 Frazer Vagabond
2008 Pacemaker :)

serialnumberplate

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2009, 01:34:43 PM »
The Henry J tag is authentic...
Thanks for the decoding.
About Henry J tag: they did not have body numbers stamped on the large plate.
Even if they had, the body number "1" should be much closer to the BODY NUMBER stamping.
And, the third thing, the whole lower part of the plate is remade or combined with other tag.

Fid

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2009, 08:45:36 PM »
Aha, it was late, what can I say?!  Yes, it looks like that bottom piece may have been overlaid. The rest makes sense, I never looked at the bottom.  Cool.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 12:49:16 PM by Fid »
1953 Henry J Corsair Deluxe
Edgar Kaiser's custom 1951 Henry J
1951 Kaiser Special
1952 Allstate Deluxe

Need your classic car radio repaired? I repair vacuum tube radios

serialnumberplate

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2009, 11:03:12 AM »
I have some more Kaiser serial number plates - http://serialnumberplate.com/index.php?type=show_as&as_type=make&value=KAISER
Need help identifying following codes:
PAINT: 5030, 5302, 5303, 5308, 5313, 5321, 5322
TRIM: 097, 107, 227, 439, 442, 443, 462, 463
TR: 7 trim code
AG: 00, 32 accessory groups
IP: 29, 37 interior paints
And what do the fields RD and HR mean?

joefrazer

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Re: Serial number plates (Kaiser, Frazer, Henry J and Allstate)
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2009, 07:47:47 PM »
In the last post, the numbers for the trim and paint look to be swapped.

Paint:
097 - Startdust Ivory
107 - Maroon Velvet metallic
227 - Island Green metallic
439 - Stardust Ivory/Pea****** Blue
442 - Jade Green metallic/Stardust Ivory
443 - Pea****** Blue/Stardust Ivory
462 - Signal Green metallic/Jade Tint
463 - Island Green metallic/Palm Beach Ivory

Trim:
5030 - Australian Beige Stockholm and Vinyl (used on the 54 Late Specials)
5302 - Pea****** Blue Luxura and Bleached Bambu Vinyl
5303 - Jade Green Luxura and Bleached Bambu Vinyl
5308 - Black on Beige Laguna and Bleached Bambu Vinyl
5313 - Maroon and Beige Laguna & Maroon Bambu/Bleached Topping (used on the 53 Dragon)
5321 - Ivory Boucle Vinyl and Green La Mar
5322 - Ivory Boucle Vinyl and Copperdust La Mar

TR (transmission):
7 - automatic

AG (accessory group):
00 - (probably 100) - standard group for the Dragon. Quite an extensive list but includes stuff like tinted glass, automatic transmission, 7.10x15 tires, radio, antenna, windshield washer, Calpoint custom carpet, gold plated script, handles, ornaments, bambu upholstered package tray, rear seat speaker, and more.
32 - Bumper bridge chrome caps, wheel covers, exhaust deflector, tenite plastic steering wheel, electric wipers, clock. (listed for $113.50) Standard on 53 Manhattans and 54 Early Specials

RD = Is actually DR and at one time, it was thought to mean Delivery Region, but we're not so sure today.

HR = Again, this one is a mystery...maybe denotes factory installed heater.

KF trim tags were copied from concurrent Chrysler units because one of their engineers came to KF at startup and brought along the idea. I think some of the codes on KF trim tags were set up to be used, but never had anything stamped in that column.