Engine Won't Start Now

[shadetree77]

Finally got the engine put back together today. Now it won't start. It won't even TRY. The starter turns the engine over just fine. Good and strong now. It's not kicking out anymore. But the engine will not even BEGIN to catch. It's getting fuel and spark. I've tried several different coils including a known good one.

I'm starting to think it's a timing issue. I put a new timing chain on it. I did just like the manual said making sure to have a certain number of links between the two marks on the the sprockets. Anyone have some tips for me on how to make sure the timing is in the ballpark without a timing light? From what I understand the pointer on the engine should be pointing to 4 degrees before TDC when the distributor rotor is pointing AT the number 1 cylinder position. Is this correct? How can I make sure the number 1 piston is at the top of the compression stroke?

I'm open to any other suggestions as well. A few more symptoms I noticed which may or may not be related: When I put my hand over the carb. while the engine is rotating I feel air pushing OUT. I noticed some bubbles of gas around some of the carb gaskets too as if it's having air pushed through it. I thought a carb was supposed to always pull IN while the engine is rotating? Also after I try to start the engine for a minute or so I can smell raw gas under the hood. Unburned gas in the cylinders?

[Fid]

Be aware the rotor turns COUNTER-clockwise. Are the plug wires in the correct sequence for counter-clockwise rotation? It's often assumed that they should be clockwise and they get installed that way and the engine won't start.  That's the first check I would make.

[shadetree77]

Thanks for the suggestion Fid but I checked the plug wires twice and they look correct. I used the install guide I got from the fellow who sells the repro. plug sets (can't think of his name right now) and also compared that to pictures I took of the wires when it ran before. Number 1 plug is first one to the left of the front distributor cap hold down. The rest are hooked up just like it shows in his guide and according to firing order.

[joefrazer]

Pull the distributor off the head and remove the adapter shaft from the block (that's the long shaft that connects the distributor to the oil pump. Reinstall the shaft 180 degrees opposite of how it was originally installed. Reinstall the distributor, you'll need to turn the rotor 180 degrees as well. Try to start the engine.

Let us know what happens.

[carbuff1941]

I agree with Joefrazer, it sounds as though you are 180 degrees out.

[shadetree77]

That's what I was thinking too. I lined the distributor rotor up with the number one plug position 4 or 5 times in a row and marked the pulley just to see where it was at in relation to where it SHOULD be. It appears to be on the exact opposite side of where the marks are. That would seem to indicate 180 degrees out. But I did not know that you could turn the shaft like that without turning the distributor itself. I've never taken a distributor out. I will definitely give that a try soon and I'll let you know what happens. You might have just saved me from having to take that timing chain off again which is something I was NOT looking forward to. Thank you!!

[shadetree77]

Update. Did exactly what was suggested. Took distributor off, removed shaft, rotated it 180, rotated rotor 180 to match, put back together, and.....nothing. Condition is the same. I do have a question though. Was I supposed to have the timing marks lined up or anything when I rotated the shaft? Would that have made a difference as to where it ended up?

[joefrazer]

No, there was no need to line up the timing marks.

Just to be sure - all of the following check out OK:
1. The carburetor is delivering fuel to the engine
2. There is 6V at both coil posts with the key ON
3. There is spark at the points with the key ON
4. Engine compression is good - at least 110 lbs
5. When the timing pointer is at TDC (or close to it) with the distributor rotor pointing to cylinder #1, both the intake and exhaust valves are closed

I would reset the distributor to its previous position (rotate the adapter shaft 180 back to where it was) and check everything one more time. Have you tried pulling a spark plug to see if it fires when the engine is cranked?

[shadetree77]

Sounds like a plan. I put the distributor back to its original position. I'll begin checking off things on the list soon. I need to go get a compression tester tomorrow. But, before I came in just now I used a piece of wire down the spark plug hole to determine when the piston was coming up. I believe that I found TDC because when the cylinder is all the way up the pointer is on the correct timing mark. BUT, when this happens the distributor rotor is NOT pointing to number 1 cylinder. I know it can point opposite of number one if you're not on the compression stroke but this is not the case. It doesn't point to number 1 at all no matter what stroke it's on.  This is what is leading me to believe there was a mistake of some sort on the timing chain installation. I'm assuming if this is the case, the only way to fix it would be to take the timing chain back off and try to line it up correctly. Thoughts?

[joefrazer]

I agree. You may have to revisit the chain installation.

[shadetree77]

That's what I was afraid of. Sigh....maybe things will go a bit faster this time now that I know the ins and outs of the job. I ordered a new gasket for the cover. Wow...I am not looking forward to doing that all over again. I went ahead and completed all the checks on the list given above with the exception of the compression test. I need to buy a compression tester. Here are the results:

1. Carb. is doing its job. Strong squirts of fuel from the jets when the pedal is depressed.

2. Verified 6V at both sides of coil with key on.

3. Blue/white sparks at points when trying to start car.

4. N/A (No compression tester)

5. I can't do this one as I have already put the tappet cover back on and can't see the valves through the tiny spark plug hole. Did use a piece of wire to find TDC and rotor will NOT line up with number 1 cylinder.

6. Pulled a plug and it does fire with blue/white spark.

7. Also removed each wire and checked for spark. Got blue/white spark on all plug wires.

[Doc]

Shadetree77, I can certainly associate with your problem and will follow this thread in hopes you get the engine running. Just sincerely hope you find a resolution. Some folks here may recall my problem with a '51 Fraser hardtop dating back to 2009-2013 where everything I have seen on this thread was checked, rechecked, plus all the little basics as well as timing chain, distributor rebuilt, but the car never ran again after the blown head gasket in December 2012 and we just parked it in March 2013 after multiple efforts to get it running.

[rialto]

The distributor turns at half crankshaft speed. The #1 piston comes up at the end of the exhaust stroke and once again at the end of the compression stroke. The spark plug fires at top dead center of the compression stroke. Disconnect the coil wire. Take out the #1 spark plug. Remove the distributor cap. Put your finger firmly over the #1 plug hole. Have an assistant crank the starter four or five turns. You should feel both suction and pressure as it turns over. The pressure should push your finger away. The pressure should come as the rotor points to #1.  The air pumping out of the carburator is not a good sign. The timing chain could be on wrong or you could have valves stuck open or adjusted too tight. A compression test would be a big help. Good uniform compression would rule out valve problems.  Uniform low compression could be the chain. Hope this helps.

[alohagreen]

The distributor turns at half crankshaft speed. The #1 piston comes up at the end of the exhaust stroke and once again at the end of the compression stroke. The spark plug fires at top dead center of the compression stroke. Disconnect the coil wire. Take out the #1 spark plug. Remove the distributor cap. Put your finger firmly over the #1 plug hole. Have an assistant crank the starter four or five turns. You should feel both suction and pressure as it turns over. The pressure should push your finger away. The pressure should come as the rotor points to #1.  The air pumping out of the carburator is not a good sign. The timing chain could be on wrong or you could have valves stuck open or adjusted too tight. A compression test would be a big help. Good uniform compression would rule out valve problems.  Uniform low compression could be the chain. Hope this helps.

or the gear

[shadetree77]

UPDATE:

Compression test complete. Uniformly LOW across the board. Took the timing chain cover off. The timing chain is WAAAAY off. Apparently, I didn't have it lined up correctly during installation. I will be pulling it off tonight to try and reposition it. New timing cover gasket won't be here until Wednesday so I'll be back with another update near the end of the week. Hopefully, that update will include a video of the engine running. Wish me luck my friends.