Question about 49-50 Kaiser Virginians vs. 1951 Frazer Manhattan hardtops

[JFerriss]

I am hoping that the club historian or other long timers may be able to help me with this question. It has been written that the 1951 Frazer Manhattan 4 door hardtops were ALL made from left over Kaiser Virginians. How can this be proven for certain? The KFOCI Handbook shows and estimated 950 49-50 Kaiser Virginian hardtops were built, but I find nowhere that indicates how many of these were sold. Let us say for speculation that if the left over bodies of 49-50 Virginians all became 51 Frazer MH hardtops, there must have been at least the est. 132 left over Virginian production in order to become Frazers. If not, then to make an estimated 132 1951 Frazer MH hardtops, would not some of  the 132 be made from 49- 50 left over FRAZER SEDANS, using the same hand-built techniques used create the 49-50 Kaiser Virginian 4 door hardtops. In other words, if all 132 51 Frazer MH 4 door hardtops were all from the 49-50 Kaiser Virginian 4 door hardtops, then all dashboards/instrumentation of the Frazer sedans left over would have to also been grafted into the new 51 Frazer MH 4 door hardtops and all Kaiser dashboards/instrumentation would have to be removed. I only owned one 51 Frazer Manhattan 4 door hardtop but all others that I had seen in person seemed to have well fitted 49-50 Frazer instrumentation, making me wonder if at least some of them could have been built up from Frazer sedans the same way the 49-50 Virginians were made from Kaiser sedans. Any thoughts on this?

[Gordie]

Weren't the '49-'51 Frazer dashboards the same?  All '51 Frazer's were made from left over '49-'50 bodies and I am sure that no hard tops were modified from regular sedans.  Whenever the left over bodies were used up that was the end of Frazer production even though they could have sold many more Frazer's if they had the bodies.

[DTort96646]

The hardtop roof is different from the sedan roof all years. The body of the 51 Frazer has different rear quarter panels that are welded in place. The hardtop has a different front seat stiffener welded in behind the front seat as well as the fixed center window all years (49 - 51). Hardtop bodies are different than sedan bodies. As for being made from leftover 50 cars is doubtful as too much would be required to change them over. I believe the statement was that 1951 Frazers were made from the excess stampings leftover from 1950 Frazers. I read that Kaiser had a habit of building extra bodies ( body bank) in anticipation of building more cars. That began in the 47-48 years and continued. I believe that was one of the arguments Joe Frazer had with Henry Kaiser about slowing production.

[JFerriss]

Sorry if my question sounded confusing. If all 1951 Frazer Manhattan 4 door hardtops were made from 1949-50 KAISER Virginians, then the KAISER dashboards would have to be changed to FRAZER dashboards which indeed was the case. Of course, I realize the structural difference between the sedans and the hardtops regardless of whether Kaiser or Frazer, and all 4 door hardtops regardless of marque were made from 4 door sedans, but my main question was were ALL 1951 Frazer Manhattan 4 door hardtops made only from 1949-59 Kaiser Virginian 4 door hardtops or could possibly some of the 1951 Frazer Manhattan 4 door hardtops be actually made from left over FRAZER sedans instead of KAISER Virginians? Is there indisputable evidence that all 1951 Frazer Manhattan 4 door hardtops were made only from 1949-50 KAISER Virginians?

[Gordie]

There probably is evidence but I don't know where to find it.  Kaiser was just trying to use up all of the left over bodies and that is why there were any '51 Frazer's at all.  It is highly unlikely that K-F would go to the big expense of converting sedan bodies to hardtops when they were not good sellers at all.

[DTort96646]

A 4 door hardtop cannot be made from a 4 door sedan. They are similar but different floor pans to start. The factory would not disassemble one vehicle to make it into another vehicle because it is not cost effective. The 49 -50 Kaiser chassis is different from the 51Frazer chassis. The engines have different number stampings. As I stated before, the 1951 Frazer 4 door sedan was made from leftover body stampings from 1950 Kaiser and Frazer body stampings not built bodies. The same would go for the 4 door hardtops.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

According to the Kaiser-Frazer Operating Report for the 3 months ending March 31, 1950, Kaiser-Frazer built 980 Virginians during the 1949-50 model run, this included 1 Virginian built in Jasnuary 1950.   As of 3/31/50, 874 of these were sold & only 2 were classed as new, undriven, unsold cars in inventory.  This totals 875 new cars soid to dealers and distributors or available for sale.  This leaves 115 finished cars.

Five cars were on the books as assigned to the Experimental Engineering department of Kaiser-Frazer, 45 were assigned to Kaiser-Frazer Sales Corporation for field uses (used by people in the various sales offices across the country), and another 45 were available as "executive driven" cars for resale through the By-Products Store (surplus materials/vehicles store at Willow Run).  This announts for another 95 cars.  Kaiser-Frazer Export Corporation still had one for its uses outside the 48 states.  There were also a total of 8 cars assigned to other K-F departments at Willow Run or available for resale after use by the same other "executive driven" uses.  This comes to 104 vehicles.  Adding the two "legally new" cars in inventory comes to 106 vehicles. 

The report also states (with no specific detail noted) that 1 Virginian was re-purchased from a terminated distributorship during the first quarter.  That car plus the 105 other cars listed previously accounts for the difference between cars built and cars sold to dealers or distributors.  In other words, every car built is accounted for.  None were turned into 1951 Frazer Hardtops. 

The 1951 Frazer Manhattan Hardtops were made from either body stampings run through body fabrication with different quarter panels and some other minor revisions or bodies built up butg not put on chassis in the body bank.  It cost $$$ to "modify" the built up cars but it was cheaper than selling the material for scrap or building out more 1950 Virginians that would never be saleable without substantial price cuts.

[JFerriss]

A 4 door hardtop cannot be made from a 4 door sedan. They are similar but different floor pans to start. The factory would not disassemble one vehicle to make it into another vehicle because it is not cost effective. The 49 -50 Kaiser chassis is different from the 51Frazer chassis. The engines have different number stampings. As I stated before, the 1951 Frazer 4 door sedan was made from leftover body stampings from 1950 Kaiser and Frazer body stampings not built bodies. The same would go for the 4 door hardtops.

According to Richard Longworth's book it is indicated that the basis for all the 4 door convertibles and 4 door hardtops was the 4 door sedan, the only body style available for such custom work. The convertibles used a reinforced X frame for stability while the 4 door hardtops used the 4 door sedan's ladder frame since the roof provided reinforcement and Longworth indicated that the "crease lines" stamped into the hardtops, resembling the bows of convertibles, also added strength. Of course there were other reinforcements as well. Having owned a Frazer 4 door hardtop I can say it was a very comfortable, smooth, quite driving car. But I get your point of cost issues and using up all available inventory. My question is more about exploring whether it is a myth that all 51 Frazer Hardtops were originally 49-50 Kaiser Virginians.

[JFerriss]

According to the Kaiser-Frazer Operating Report for the 3 months ending March 31, 1950, Kaiser-Frazer built 980 Virginians during the 1949-50 model run, this included 1 Virginian built in Jasnuary 1950.   As of 3/31/50, 874 of these were sold & only 2 were classed as new, undriven, unsold cars in inventory.  This totals 875 new cars soid to dealers and distributors or available for sale.  This leaves 115 finished cars.

Five cars were on the books as assigned to the Experimental Engineering department of Kaiser-Frazer, 45 were assigned to Kaiser-Frazer Sales Corporation for field uses (used by people in the various sales offices across the country), and another 45 were available as "executive driven" cars for resale through the By-Products Store (surplus materials/vehicles store at Willow Run).  This announts for another 95 cars.  Kaiser-Frazer Export Corporation still had one for its uses outside the 48 states.  There were also a total of 8 cars assigned to other K-F departments at Willow Run or available for resale after use by the same other "executive driven" uses.  This comes to 104 vehicles.  Adding the two "legally new" cars in inventory comes to 106 vehicles. 

The report also states (with no specific detail noted) that 1 Virginian was re-purchased from a terminated distributorship during the first quarter.  That car plus the 105 other cars listed previously accounts for the difference between cars built and cars sold to dealers or distributors.  In other words, every car built is accounted for.  None were turned into 1951 Frazer Hardtops. 

The 1951 Frazer Manhattan Hardtops were made from either body stampings run through body fabrication with different quarter panels and some other minor revisions or bodies built up butg not put on chassis in the body bank.  It cost $$$ to "modify" the built up cars but it was cheaper than selling the material for scrap or building out more 1950 Virginians that would never be saleable without substantial price cuts.

Thanks Jack for this detailed research in answer to my original questions. This is much appreciated. Years ago at a car show some gentleman, while admiring my 1951 Frazer Manhattan 4 door hardtop, told me that all 1951 Frazer Manhattan 4 door hardtops were originally 1949-50 Kaiser Virginians that were left over. I did not pay it much attention as I really enjoyed my Frazer and drove it everywhere. Then later I was talking to someone else regarding my curiosity as to what the "Milestone Society" is. They explained it to me, and then indicated that my 1953 Kaiser Manhattan (and I found out later my 1951 Kaiser Golden Dragon) was recognized by the Milestone Society, but he said my 1951 Frazer 4 door hardtop was not recognized. While it seemed odd to me that the most luxurious and unique 4 door hardtop Frazer (and the rarest of my cars) was not recognized, it really was no big deal to me as I never brought my cars to shows for trophies or recognition, only to celebrate their place in history with pride. He explained to me that my 1951 Frazer 4 door hardtop was not recognized by the Milestone Society because it was built from re-serialed leftover Kaiser cars. However, if I understand your research correctly it must have been a myth that all 1951 Frazer Manhattan 4 door hardtops were made from left over 1949-59 Kaiser Virginians. Thanks again.