Ignition switch and plug wires

[Lisa P]

Worked on the '48 this weekend and was able to get it turning over but no spark.  Here is what I did:

Wired the starter button with one wire from starter and other to small terminal on solenoid, this allowed to starter button to work. 

When I tried to wire it using the feed coming from the ignition switch it would not work. 

I tried to troubleshoot the ignition switch using the shop manual with no success, can anyone tell me if the wires (accessory side of ignition switch) to the horn relay on the firewall need to be hooked up in order for the ignition switch to work?  Could there be a ground or something that I am overlooking?  Where to shop manual discusses using a good ground to check the switch, what would be the best option? 

Also, I am using a set of plug wires from a '79 Jeep to try starting it but am not getting any spark.  Do I need to get the older style wires with the copper core in order to get spark?  Am not sure if coil, points and condenser are good so I will be picking new ones up tomorrow.  This car hasn't run in 35 years and when it was running back then I was told it did not run well.  This is a learning experience for me and I can't wait to get it running!  Sorry for the long post.

[Fid]

Hi Lisa, are you aware of the fact that there is no accessory position on cars that old? Also, are you aware that the starter has a separate push button to run it? 
I don't recall if you mentioned your approximate age group (and you certainly don't have to) but many younger folks (50 and under) may not be aware of these things. In order to start a '48, turn the key to the "on" position (I believe it's the only position) and then push the starter button on the dash, to the left of the steering, wheel to run the starter.
If you were already aware of this, please accept my apologies, but some people aren't and if you're one them, we're here to help.
Let us know and good luck.

[Lisa P]

Fid,

I am 41 years old.  I have not owned anything this old, my oldest vehicle was a '54 Dodge truck but I have been exposed to old cars and trucks since I was a small child and realize they are very different.  I did try to research the Kaiser ignition as much as possible before posting this question because I wanted to conquer it myself. 

When I referred to the accessory position of the ignition switch, what I meant was the "ACC" side.  When sitting in the vehicle I currently have, I can turn the key counterclockwise one click to approximately the 11 o'clock position or what is referred to as the accessory (pg. 324 shop manual) or ACC position.  The reproduction shop manual I am using for the Kaiser has a wiring diagram on page 289 that indicates three positions for the ignition switch; ACC, BATT and COIL.  In fact, I believe the rear of the ignition switch has three posts on it with the wires from the ACC post I think going to the fuel gauge, oil gauge and horn relay. 

As I mentioned in my previous post, I was able to get the car to turn over using the starter push button that is mounted all the way over on the left side of the dash near the driver by running a hot wire from the starter to one side and another wire out to the solenoid on top of the starter.  I was not able to get the starter push button to work when I wired everything sans gauges to the ignition switch and turned the key clockwise to what I had hoped was the correct position and yes, I did try with the key in every position.  I am not familiar with the positive ground so I was wondering if I am missing a ground somewhere by not hooking up the gauges and this is why the ignition switch isn't working.  I did have the horn relay wired up but perhaps this is faulty, it only has three terminals which makes it appear different from the one mentioned in the shop manual for '47-48 which has 4 terminals.  Thanks again.

[Fid]

Sorry, I read the entire post and forgot some of it!  I guess when you're my age you forget things faster than you used to!
I had a '48 Frazer and it did not have an ACC position as I recall. The '51 Kaiser I had didn't and the Js don't so that surprises me. I certainly don't deny it now, especially if it's in the manual. In any case, replacing the points is a good place to start as they can tarnish over time and not make contact any longer.

[Lisa P]

Thanks Fid, I was hoping that changing the coil, points, etc would help.  The last time this car was tuned up was probably 1967 as that is the date on the service sticker still on the door.  The shop manual I have says that Frazers up to a certain serial number did not have the ACC position.  But, referring to that diagram helped me as the positions on the switch are labeled GA and AM, something the troubleshooting instructions referred to but were not on the Kaiser wiring diagram!  You don't happen to remember what color the original spark plug wire were on that '48, do you?  They were the cloth braided kind, right?  Thanks again.

[Fid]

Unfortunately the Frazer I had did not have the original plug wires. I'm sure someone will be able to answer that for you so keep checking back.

[joefrazer]

Regarding the ignition wires, as long as one end has a male end to skip into the cap and ther other female end to fit over the end of the spark plug...and are long enough...the wrires from your 79 Jeep will work.

On a Kaiser, everything runs thru the ammeter. Your 6V in from the battery will run to the ammeter negative side, then a wire on the positive side runs to the ignition switch "AM" terminal. From the 'on' position on the switch ("COIL" terminal), you'll then go to the negative side of the coil. The positive side of the coil runs to the distribitor. Another wire from the coil side of the ignition switch goes to one of the terminal on the starter push button. The other wire will run to the center (small) post on the starter solenoid. When all of this is in place, there should be enough there to make the car start. Of course, there's lots more...like the generator wiring and wiring for stuff like lights, etc, but this bare bones setup will get the car to turn over using the push button.

One question...did you try jumping the connections on the back of the starter switch. If the starter turns with the key on, the push button is no good...it does happen. If not, then your circuit is still incomplete.

[Lisa P]

Thanks for the excellent instructions!  I did not try jumping the connections on the back of the starter switch, however I may have had the connections going to the back of the ammeter reversed as I could not see it very well.  I did check for continuity when I had it hooked up and it was there.  I think I had the remaining connections running just like you suggested but of course will go back tonight to revisit them.  I was not able to find 0 gauge battery cables so I had to revert to 2 ga.  Would this cause any problems?  Thanks.

[Jim B PEI]

While this is not exactly in response to Lisa's problem, I did see a "museum fresh" 51 Kaiser in Ontario that wouldn't fire up because it had new style ignition wires which were perfectly fine for a new car with a high output electronic ignition...but wouldn't work with an old 6 volt coil. it had spark at the coil, but not at the plugs. Putting old style wires on it solved that 'price reducing' problem.

By the way, if you are looking for 0 gauge wire, you can always get it at a farm supply/tractor dealer place, and likely they can make up the cables for you as well.

As a point of interest, whenever my 49 Kaiser has broken down far from home, I go to a tractor place first thing, as often they are possibly more familiar there with Continental engines for forklifts, mobile welders, mobile generators and field water pumping units, as well as in old-time (Massey-Ferguson, for example) tractors. Even more fun fact, when the engine needed a rebuild, a small supply place in a town of 1200 8 miles away had just about EVERY single part needed for a rebuild ON THE SHELF or at worst, next day from their regional warehouse 100 miles away. Comes from having MF  as a popular brand of tractor. Oh, and sometimes at an *old longtime* Jeep place there might be an old fellow that worked at one time on Willys (Kaiser) Jeeps with the Continental.

[Fid]

Regarding the 0 gauge battery cables, I too have gotten them from tractor stores but you can also get them from http://www.antiqueautobattery.com You have to be careful though, as one I got from there had the head fall right off it when I was installing it!  I had a propane torch and was able to fasten it back on but not everyone has that luxury.  If the car turns over OK with a 2 gauge, it should start as it takes very little current to generate the spark needed. The larger cables really effect how well the starter turns over. Yes, if the starter spins too slow, it will not start so you'll have to judge that as  you do it.

[Jim B PEI]

The 'falling off' problem is exactly why I do NOT usually by through internet, but from a serious local walk-in store-front business, like a tractor supply/tractor dealer. Farmers tend to be faithful customers, but do crappy shoddy work even once and they never ever forget...or forget to tell 4,000 other friends.

[Lisa P]

Thanks for all the replies, the fact that farm and tractor stores should have what I need is great news since I live in the midwest and there are plenty of them! 

I solved the problem with the starter button not working when running through the ignition switch, it was a bad terminal connection at one end of the wire.  This was my first experience with terminal ends that solder themselves when heat is applied.  It appears that I either applied too much heat, or not enough.  I changed the terminal end and now have the ignition switch and starter push button working properly.  As far as the battery cables go, I have the stock 6V system and and brand new battery but geez it turns over sloooow.  I think the book says 70 cranking rpms, mine seems a tad slower, would 0 gauge cables help? 

Jim B PEI-thanks for the advice, I too wondered about the spark plug wires.  I talked with an older gentleman one time who was driving a Stanley Steamer and working on an old 30's era truck, he said he couldn't use the newer plug wires and had to use copper core wires.

Thanks again, I need all the help I can get!

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Hi,

There is one other thing to be aware of on the engine electrical system that nobody seemed to mention.  If you check the picture of the opened distributor on Page 309 you will note that there is a small bit of wire from the approx. 3 o'clock position to about the 7 o'clock position.  This bit of cotton-braided wire sometimes breaks from age at one of the screw terminals.  It looks ok as it sits, but the car will not fire up.   It will have to be removed to be checked.  I had this happen to me on a Kaiser that sat for many years (similar situation to yours) and it took weeks to work this out because everything looked ok.

Yes, you will have to change the plug wires to the old style.

As for the engine parts and stuff, if you go to a tractor store, this is the Continental F226 engine (per the 1964 L-head engines book from Continental) as far as many internal parts, etc, go.  It was used in certain models Massey-Ferguson and other larger tractor brands.

[Jim B PEI]

Oh, and one additional free piece of general advice, about fixing Kaisers and other older cars (I have a Kaiser and 4 Studebakers) Beside your FLAPS (Friendly Local Auto Parts Store) with the knowledgeable-sometimes- old guys and gals, and tractor dealers/farm supply, for certain mechanical repairs try out large truck/vehicle repair places! They are familiar with king pins, brake drums, re-arcing springs, zerk fittings, axle grease, 'swaging' and similar bits of for many of now arcane lore, as lots of transports and other big equipment garbage trucks, street sweepers you get the idea, still use simple & strong tech (but give basic service and lubricate often!!) rather than the "buy at an inflated price from the factory and never do any service yourself for the next 200,000 miles" which is for all new cars. For a ludicrous example, locally, the big dairy/cheese maker for the Island has a big fleet of tanker trucks to pick up raw milk. They figured out that they were spending so much money outside for rehabbing engines that they got into the business of rebuilding engines themselves, and eventually, for the public. So, when I had the very tired engine in my 49 Kaiser Special rebuilt, a local corner garage guy who is used to restoring old time tractors for retired farmers to put on their front lawns and to occasionally cut their lawns (saw one yesterday, small lawn, BIG tractor, 85 years old, and cutting at super slow turtle speed <ggg>) took it apart, the dairy company boiled out the block, cleaned and honed etc, and the local tractor supply supplied all the parts, and the local garage guy put it all back together. The total price was a tiny fraction of what a specific car engine rebuilder would have charged...ISTR less than $1600 all told, rather than the $3500 people seem to expect. My $0.02 from a certified 4x CASO...and come to think of it, a certified CAKO as well <gg>

Another local guy rehabs all my starters and generators, and also rigged up an ingenious 6 AND 12 volt and alternator system, using two 6 volt batteries in series/parallel to start the Kaiser on 12 (handy on cold mornings) but to keep everything else strictly original and 6 volt positive ground, with the option of running something modern on 12 volt with a bit of extra wiring if I so wish.

[Fid]

The incorrect gauge battery cables can most definitely cause the engine to turn over slow.  Another thing is the cylinder walls may be very dry if the car has not run in many years.  I've heard (but can't verify but someone probably can) that a little Marvel Mystery oil down the cylinders helps.  The problem with that is you get oil in the cylinders and even though the engine turns over great, they may not fire due to too much oil in the cylinders so you have to be careful.