No hills for Manhattan

[DH Comet]

Greetings, O Wise Ones!
My '53 Manhattan has lately developed an aversion for hills.  The car starts, idles, and accelerates normally, and feels fine driving down the street, but it will lose power drastically going up a hill, even a fairly moderate one, in third or fourth gear (it's a Hydramatic).  At first I thought it was because it might be lugging in fourth, but a few tests lately show it happening on a moderate uphill slope when it's held in third as well, at perhaps 30 mph. This can happen whether it's running only on the mechanical fuel pump or with the auxiliary electric pump running as well. The car has a new coil, which I thought at first might have fixed the issue, but no. Carb was rebuilt about three years ago, or perhaps 5000 miles.  Any ideas?  Accelerator pump perhaps?
Thanks, I appreciate any thoughts you might have!

[rrdcorvair]

Have you tried accelerating as though passing, causing the car to downshift to third, or if holding in third, does it also not show an increase in power?  The vacuum advance could be an issue going up hill.  The vacuum advance would also come into play in a passing maneuver.
 

[konrad]

Have you tried accelerating as though passing, causing the car to downshift to third, or if holding in third, does it also not show an increase in power?  The vacuum advance could be an issue going up hill.  The vacuum advance would also come into play in a passing maneuver.

Sounds to me like Comet is describing something new, something which was not the case prior, i.e. there was a normal strain upon a hill which is now suddenly exacerbated in somewhat dramatic fashion.  Would a faulty vacuum advance have that dramatic of an effect, even on a slight hill?

[DH Comet]

Yes, the car will make a good start on the hill (which might be, say, three blocks long, maybe a 5 - 7% grade) running strongly for perhaps 10 seconds and then there will be a sudden loss of power.  It happens in third or fourth, at various speeds (once on a freeway bridge at 60 mph).
I've just come back from a run in the car around the neighbourhood, on level streets mainly, but with one quite steep uphill, which the car took with no problem in mostly second gear, changing to third towards the top.  There's good response from the accelerator if I floor it suddenly, the response, of course, varying depending on the gear.  So generally just driving around the engine feels quite strong;  just the long higher-speed hills seem to be the issue.

I have another question, possibly related, that I think I will put in another thread, as I don't want this one to get off the topic:  sudden loss of power on hills in higher gears.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

please see my comments in DHComet's transmission thread about shifting on hills.  The K-F automatic transmission manual information I posted may be applicable to this problem according to the diagnostics section of the service manual.

[G.B. (All Vinyl Dragon)]

I have started to reed Your other Question & Forum. Then found This .

First they had a Card to Explain how to Operate a Hydramatic  Transmission . You can Look for it in KF Information They put it on the Shifter when New.

We know Reverse. But put in Natural , Turnoff Engine, Engine Stops Put in Reverse for Parking Boot to Kick in.

 Low You can clime a Hill straight Up. Flathead Six will not Die with Torque. It’s a Jeep for Hill Climbing .   
Next Notch up is In Town Driving 1-2-3 & Shifts Early less You floorboard it.
Next Notch Up Highway 4th Gear Last. If You take off Slow in Town up to 45 it will be in 4th around 45. Floorboard it 55  & It will Up be in Forth.

You’re Kick Down should be last Inch before Full Throttle.

[Bob G]

Very good description of how the hydra-matic works. To force a downshift from 4th to 3rd and keep from lugging you need to almost floor then pedal.

[Thomasso]

Float level?  Fuel filter?  Dwell?   If this is a new condition it is probably not the transmission.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

There are a number of variables to performance issues in any old car.  In the case of Hydra-Matic, going up a steep grade will not be that much different of a situation than going up a steep grade with overdrive engaged on a manual transmission.  You need to drop down a gear to give you more "ummph" to climb the grade but not as fast as you do on the flats.  You could have a combination of a fuel line partially blocked to prevent more gas flowing as you push down the pedal to get more gasoline into the engine for more power. 

Hydra-Matic was originally concieved off of how manual transmissions work with a torque converter and some other gagetry to automatically shift gears without invoking a clutch like the manual boxes.  The basic design of 1939 as used in Oldsmobiles went through many interations over the decades improving (or fixing problems with) the prior revision level design.  A shift from top gear down for more climbing power works much the same way as disengaging overdrive with the kick-down switch to drop back to a different gear ratio.

[DH Comet]

I changed out the fuel filter and that seems to have helped a lot.
On another possibly related topic, a story:

About two years ago I had my mechanic install an auxiliary fuel pump in the fuel line back by the gas tank, to be run off a switch mounted where the old "courtesy light" switch is.  The courtesy light switch didn't do anything, so I figured I wouldn't miss it.  The way he installed it, the pump can run without the ignition being on.
The pump is very quiet and I thought it would be useful to have a light down there beside the switch so I couldn't forget and leave it running or something, so last week I installed a light that goes on when the pump is running (hooked up to the same switch terminal as the pump). 
So I took the car out to try it:  the light works great in the driveway but doesn't work out on the road.  "What the heck?", says I.  Back in the driveway it's working again. Eventually the idea dawns:  the light (and the pump) are only working when the door is open!  I disconnected the light - not the problem, pump still only works with the door open.
Now, I didn't change anything on the switch when I put in the light, so that brings forth an absurd notion:  Have I only believed that the pump was working for the last two years?  Have I been using a "placebo" pump all this time?  How could I not have noticed this?  How did my mechanic not notice this?
Bizarre.
The strange thing is that I'm almost sure that I have turned the pump on pre-ignition before and heard it running, with the door closed.  How could wiring and the way it works change?

[Thomasso]

Most electric fuel pumps are pulse type and do make noise.  High end   motorized ones are much quieter.  Never bolt an electric pump directly to body or frame, this will amplify the noise.  Best to hang from a piece of belting with no pump fasteners touching metal.  Of course if your pump is single wire a separate ground will be required.

[vt2000driver]

please for safety sake at a minimum have the fuel pump wired so it only works with the key on.  that way if something goes bad turn off the key and the gas stops.  and have a fuse put in line from the key to the switch.  safety first!

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

I agree Char!

I would also suggest getting in touch with Dale Hammon.  Daie and others tackled the problem in the early 1980's and my 1951 Kaiser Business coupe was one of the test cars (Gerry Laurin's 1947 Kaiser Special was another) to work out best mounting (location, rubber washers to prevent grounding, etc). 

Also, here's a question for all of you...when is the last time (or how often) do you clean or replace the element in your gas filter (if you have one) or clean the fuel line from pump to tank and from pump to carb (if you don't)?  Tiny bits of crud come into your fuel tanks from hoses and tanks that have no filtration systems in them.  The stuff can either float or shift with car movement and gravity like going up or down hills.  if it is gravity related it can get plugged up going from tank down to pump or pump up to carb.  The original type fuel pumps produce only 2 to 4 lbs pressure in the system which at times is not enough to overcome the plug (gas bubbles/vapor lock, crud in system).

[DH Comet]

Just an update:  I changed out the fuel filter and, voila, all is good again.
Simple things will sometimes do the job, I guess.