Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gordie on July 08, 2013, 07:13:03 PM
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After almost forty years of enjoying this club I intend to give a little back and run for Vice President. I'll try to keep the fun in the club and work with everyone to have a first class guidelines for authenticating our cars and help to preserve them the way that they came off of the assembly lines. Jack Mueller and many of you are working on this now. Wish me luck! Gordie Chamberlin
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Good Luck. I would vote for you if I could attend. If mail in vote were allowed I would mail in a vote. To bad the Charter Member wishes to allow Mail in Voting has been ignored. :-\
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You have my vote, GORDIE FOR VP!
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I was not aware that members are not allowed to vote if not present. I also will miss the convention, but would wholeheartedly vote for Gordie. Is there a mechanism within the club to enfranchise due-paying members who cannot attend conventions?
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I was not aware that members are not allowed to vote if not present. I also will miss the convention, but would wholeheartedly vote for Gordie. Is there a mechanism within the club to enfranchise due-paying members who cannot attend conventions?
Submit a written proposal to change the Constitution. You have until 12/31/13 to send it to the President for discussion at the 2014 Convention.
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I think mail in voting could be great. But, we never know the candidates until the convention. I can remember a couple times it was minutes before the meeting before we had a candidate talked into Treasurer.
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Mail in voting was proposed in 2001 and it was struck down by the charter members. I think it has been brought up on other occasions too.
Had it been accepted/adopted, then Gordie, you would have my vote for sure.
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What a silly way to vote in leadership. Ballots need to go out to the MEMBERS. Only a portion can make it to any National meet. I ran for a seat on the Buick Club's (BCA) BOD this last time and I did not get elected, which is OK, BUT we had 7 candidates from all over the country. The BCA has a top flight monthly magazine so we all got a photo and a 3-7 paragraph write up. ALL members could read the bios and decide.
KFOCI needs to benchmark to what other successful clubs are doing. IN my opinion, which is what a forum is all about. That being said, I generally liked the club's format of newsletters and events. Fun club.
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Here is page 5 from the second KFOC Quarterly. In the 1960 Convention Report is says "We are sending out "Ballots" sheets for each person to vote."
http://circlekf.com/kflit/kfqtrlypageresults.php?pub=KC&typ=QM&nbr=002&seq=001&pag=005&Submit=Search (http://circlekf.com/kflit/kfqtrlypageresults.php?pub=KC&typ=QM&nbr=002&seq=001&pag=005&Submit=Search)
Not a new idea
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Good Luck Gordie
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Yes, ballots were sent for members to complete and bring to the national meet where they would be counted. Even then, no mail in ballots!
As you may know, I am running for the office of President of the KFOCI. I stated my intent in the July bulletin. As a two term former Midwest Director, the host of a very successful Midwest Meet where we had over 60 cars and 200 people, and a two term Vice President, I feel it's time I step up to the plate and take the club into the 21st century. I think it's time we revisit the voting procedures within the club. With this forum and it's ability to reach people, the advantage of email, and the ability to snail mail certain items at a reasonable cost, I see no reason why we cannot , at the very least, "advertise" to our members those folks interested in an office within the club and do so well enough in advance that everyone gets a chance to become familiar with the candidates.
There, now that I've stumped a bit, I'll step aside and invite your thoughts.
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Our Vice President Jim Lape has done a fine job for the club for many years and I am certainly looking forward to his presidency. I think that with some new blood in the club and with all of us having similar goals I am sure that we can make good things happen. A big reason for having the board of directors select the new officers is that many times the members do not know anything about the candidates and the board members know who are the best workers and perhaps best qualified but they also can control what is happening and keep any changes from occurring within the club. There aren't many original members left and those remaining have worked hard to make the club what it is today and most want to see continuing success. It is a wonderful club and it doesn't need major changes but maybe just a little tweaking here and there. Good luck Jim and I am looking forward to seeing everyone in Shipshewana.
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This is great news! You have our support, Gordie.
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I've known both Jim and Gordie for many years. They are good fellows who have MUCH to offer the club. I think their leadership would be welcomed by all club members who care about the future of this organization. We need to not only unite our members - we must work hard toward expanding the club. The orphan cars need all the help they can get - I would hope we will consider co-sponsored meets for the lesser known makes. The more publicity we give our favorite cars the more folks will realize what a significant part of automotive history K/F and other orphan makes played.
I heartily endorse these two gentlemen for our President and Vice President offices !!!
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I second that!
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I always find it interesting that the current president and last couple of past presidents never visit this site. They could get so much insight here. They'd know more about what's going on and what members are thinking and experiencing but you don't see them here. Joe Frazer, you are correct, KFOC needs to move into the 21st century and seems recent leadership does not understand or appreciate that. These leaders all express a need and desire to grow the membership but they do not seem to understand that everything is done online these days and that's the way it's been for the last 10 - 12 years. Where have they been? Best of luck to you Jim! Again, if I was there, you'd have my vote.
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I agree with your Fid!
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With regards to the mail in voting, people should be aware of the downside to this. In order for mail-in voting to be successful, the club needs to have a Nominating Committee or other means for ALL candidates for elected offices officially announce their intentions for office prior to, say, March 1 of the election year. That would allow time for a mailing of ballots take place to all the members (including Associate Members) so they could cast a vote and get it back to the proper party in time for proper counting before the National Convention. Members would also have to realize that once they have submitted a vote by mail (email might not be allowable as an original signature should be required to verify authenticity) they could not change their minds or otherwise cancel their vote. They would also have to be members in good standing as of the date when elections actually take place.
Jim and Gordie's announcements of running for office would have come out too late to have made the mail in voting but this is not unusual; often finding candidates comes down to talking to people who arrive early at a National Convention as few, if any (some years) want to hold office. We have a lot of gripers about how things are run but practically no one who wants the jobs so things can be fixed.
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That is good advice and we would also need statements from the candidates stating their qualifications and goals and why they want the job. This could go out as a separate item along with the ballot and in with the Bulletin or Quarterly to save postage. We will be discussing lots of things in the future that the members would like to see improved. One of the things that we can think about now is encouraging our non member friends to join us. More members equal more benefits for all of us.
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It's tough. Some clubs run better when operated by a few key invested individuals but that usually means they are not democratic. It's their way or the highway. Many club members (all clubs) simply want the club magazine and don't care much about the national direction.
The BCA (Buick Club) had me send in a bio and photo by the end of February 2013. Then, in our APRIL 2013 "Bugle" magazine, all candidates were given space in the magazine. With that monthly edition was the printed ballot with a pre printed envelope to send in. We use our CPA auditor to count the votes. Results came out on June 1, giving club member 2 months to vote and complete.
As I understand it, about 10-11% of the 8500 members cast a vote.
I don't think you should have to go to the National Meet to cast a vote. So that part I disagree with but I am not suggesting you need to do things the BCA way. Just an observation.
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OK, enough back patting. It is time for some alternative views on these issues.
First, voting for the National Club Officers is limited to those who attend the National Convention BECAUSE those members who attend are most likely to be interested in the election and issues and be familiar with those who present themselves as candidates. The OBVIOUS requirement of a member who is elected to a National position is that they attend the Conventions during their tenure and display their accomplishments. I oppose a mail in ballot for National Club officers because of the real possibility that someone who has never been to a National could be elected. The fallout from this could be two fold. First, there is a very good possibility that once elected, the new officer still won't come to the National. Second, the new officer would be at a real disadvantage in respect to knowledge on how the Club operates.
Yes, it would be nice if members would commit themselves as candidates for office with enough lead time prior to an election such that a statement could be published. That hardly ever happens and really, Gordie, Jim, the hardest elected offices to fill and with the least glory are the Secretary/Membership and Treasurer. When it comes to nominations for those positions, everyone starts looking at the floor to avoid eye contact.
Gordie, when I was VP, I found that made me the "Go To Guy" or the person who was called upon to handle the stuff that didn't fit into the job descriptions of the other Officers. Be prepared to judge coloring contests or to round up missing people for meetings. At one time KFOCI VPs tended to disappear after their term was up, but it seems there will be 4 and perhaps 6 ex-VPs at Shipshewana.
Finally, I don't care for the careless use of the term "charter member." As we all should know from reading the history of the Club, it was formed at a meeting at the Palmer House Hotel in Chicago in 1959. An early Club publication diagrams the location of the attendees, tape recorder and dog in the room at this momentous occasion. These people as well as several others who did not attend but were pivotal in the start of the Club (such as George Domer) were acknowledged as the Charter Members and have membership numbers below 100. However, these members were also named as the governing body of the Club and as some of these people lost interest and dropped out, it became expedient to name "new" charter members in order to have enough governing members to make decisions. I don't view any of these replacements as equivalent to the original Charter Members. By the early 1980s, none of the original Charter Members were exercising their prerogatives as "Super Members" in the running of the Club. Ex-president Paul Barker and his wife Marilyn may be the only Charter Members still active.
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An additional insight. In previous election years, there was a critical lack of candidates. Although there wasn't a formal nominating committee, beginning in 2003 the National Officers were asked to declare to another term or find a willing replacement so there would be at least 1 announced candidate at the start of the General Business Meeting. None of this silence and people avoiding eye contact when nominations were opened.
This doesn't mean things were rigged. When my 2nd term as VP was over, I asked Bill Miller if he would accept a nomination as VP. However, those rowdy Texans nominated Hal Nauman at the General Business Meeting and he won instead.
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@HJ-ETEX ... while I agree with some of your post, I take particular exception to the comment that "BECAUSE those members who attend are most likely to be interested in the election and issues and be familiar with those who present themselves as candidates." Unfortunately, there are many like Jack & I who cannot attend every National because of job/timing/distance/$$/whatever. That does NOT mean we have no knowledge of or interest in club issues. We have dedicated years of service to the club. That should count for something & we should have the opportunity to vote by proxy or mail-in.
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Barbara: I was careful to say "most likely to be" rather than a completely exclusionary term such as "the only people" because I recognize there are exceptions. I don't know how large a group the exceptions may be, though.
It should be noted that not all members who attend the National even go to the General Business meeting.
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In another comment in the run-up to the Shipshewana Meet, it should be noted that one of the important functions at the National Meet is to determine where the meet after the next meet (that is, 2 years away) will be. The current Constitution establishes that the National Meet will be circulated between Divisions. Before this rule, only a few groups were willing to take on the responsibility of hosting a meet. So it resulted in the National Meets occurring in just a handful of states primarily East of the Mississippi River. That made it difficult to attend for some members such as those in the West.
If you have any opinions concerning where a KF Convention should be held (or not held - I am hoping no one wants to go to Orlando FL), share your thoughts with your fellow members and especially your Regional Manager and Division Director!
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It was my understanding that the provision about rotating National Conventions between the divisions went back to the beginnings of the club as part of being a family organization with the hope being that meets would take place in or close to areas where a weeks worth of family activities could be put together WITHOUT driving a hundred and some miles each way (like the 2013 National going to Red Barns). Also, this was a time when gas was well under 50 cents a gallon and what you got out of the pump would not vaporize (causing vapor lock) the way the stuff does today (you need that 60 pounds per square inch to force fuel to move...by the way that pressure is around 10 times what your K-F or Willys fuel pump delivers) and good rooms could be had for under $30.00 a night.
It was only after the cost of doing a meet shot up so much (gas, rooms, etc) that it became harder to put something together 2 years down the road. Besides the cost of travel now vs. back then, check out the jump in room rates for tourist season compared to off season. Some of the $80.00/night rooms in Buffalo NY area are such that I would not give them $35.00/night yet they get the high $$$.
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Gordie, Your statement of July 8th is right on. You have my support.
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I will agree with Fid that it would be nice if we could get feedback on the forum from our club officers. It would really be nice if we had a Chief Judge on here that could answer questions (Particularly for the new members restoring their cars).
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If you have questions the Club Historian may also be able to help. He has the reference information that is a cornerstone of the written standards that are in the works.
However, new members should be looking for the correct K-F Factory Service Manual and correct Parts List for their vehicle(s). Many times the information in these books can at least help (if not resolve) questions encountered during restoration or maintenance. My experience has shown that in a number of cases, good mechanics stumble because they don't know what they are looking for (Parts List helps here) or how to rebuild an older fuel pump, etc (shop manual helps here). It's not that someone is stupid, but stuff works different on cars of the period compared to what they're used to working on.
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The problem is factory manuals don't always work with our Judges at the convention. I used the manuals auto lite spark plug and got marked wrong and the car beside me used champion, which isn't in the factory manual and was told correct by club judges.
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The electronic forums supported by each club seldom have many of the high rollers (read: President / VP / BOD / Chief Judges) active on them. I highly doubt Charlotte or others will make themselves available on this forum for criticism. Remember, criticism is an art form, not a negative that is often considered in today's world. Criticism can also be called a (softer) debate.
That we have Jim and Gordie check in a better percentage then most clubs.
I firmly disagree with the notion that attendees at Nationals should be the voters because they took the time to attend. A National meet is no more or no less the club then the publications, or chapter get togethers or camaraderie from more casual associations. It's neat, but few of the members can ever in any given year attend a National Meet, so it should not be held against the 95% that can't attend.
There are many ways to handle increased and more democratic voting. if you don't want to send out national ballots to members, then consider having regions vote and send a representative to the National Meet.
The BCA has a $500 stipend to allow BOD members to attend each National meet in their 3 year period. I don't think this club has that deep of pockets to do this, but it is an acknowledgement by that club that they require and need National officers to gather at least once annually at the flagship event.
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Dragon,
You have just made the case to amend our judging rules.
If details are not written on the judging sheets, inconsistencies can occur.
If we as a club are not going to correct this idea of "judging experts" without details on paper, eliminate judging.
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My point is, if Gordie and Jim are willing to work on these issues, they will get my vote.
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The electronic forums supported by each club seldom have many of the high rollers (read: President / VP / BOD / Chief Judges) active on them. I highly doubt Charlotte or others will make themselves available on this forum for criticism. Remember, criticism is an art form, not a negative that is often considered in today's world. Criticism can also be called a (softer) debate.
That we have Jim and Gordie check in a better percentage then most clubs.
I firmly disagree with the notion that attendees at Nationals should be the voters because they took the time to attend. A National meet is no more or no less the club then the publications, or chapter get togethers or camaraderie from more casual associations. It's neat, but few of the members can ever in any given year attend a National Meet, so it should not be held against the 95% that can't attend.
There are many ways to handle increased and more democratic voting. if you don't want to send out national ballots to members, then consider having regions vote and send a representative to the National Meet.
The BCA has a $500 stipend to allow BOD members to attend each National meet in their 3 year period. I don't think this club has that deep of pockets to do this, but it is an acknowledgement by that club that they require and need National officers to gather at least once annually at the flagship event.
Some clubs pay for the President of the club to attend the National Meet but to pay for all of the officers would be too much of an expense. I feel that an individual that is an officer has a duty to attend as many meets as possible and to definitely attend the official or National meet and to report on his or her progress and club business regarding their office from time to time.
All of the judging information can not be printed on the judging sheets but I agree with Jack that we should provide as much information as possible for each and every model of our cars to aid in the correct restoration and to do so by verified information from parts books, letters to dealers and distributors from the factory, service bulletins, data books and other verifiable sources. There is much good information out there and we discover more and more as we dig into these sources. Good consistent judging depends on information that can be verified.
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Gordie (and others)
I really don't mean to harp on the fact that I belong to other clubs and that I consider some of what they do helpful but here I go again. Judges are in high demand but nonetheless, the Buick Club REQUIRES a pre-judging seminar the day before the judging. I have attended 4 of these and I have judged Buicks at National meets.
The meeting/seminar is held indoors with a slide projector and the Chief Judge or his designated assistant goes through several but not all of important details to note when judging. Please consider that Buicks have been built from approx. 1903 to present so there is much more to cover then a KF 10 year production - even with Willys and affiliated makes.
Again, the club is going to have to benchmark to better run clubs and make hard changes if you want improvement and this will upset the status quo and hurt individuals feelings that have been in charge. I get a sense from some of you that those in charge feel a sense of entitlement and no one will stand up to them and say enough is enough.
From personal experience, I can say that change isn't always desired. Many old time members like continuity and just want to enjoy their National meets without fuss (and receive their Quarterlys and newsletters without fail).
As in the Buick Club I personally think it's imperative that the club is the voice of stewardship. What is an authentic accurate KF is vitally important well past our lives. IF the judging is allowed to be interpreted by a minority and no correction is made, then it will only get worse.
Or, just have fun National meets without these discussions or concerns.
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Fred did what he thought was correct according to his ideas but he is now gone and he has been replaced by documented facts and they must take the place of old memories. We are well on the way to having great information on all of our cars at our fingertips. Many of the members have contributed to this but the idea and most of the work has been done by Jack Mueller and he has spent years going thru his large library and pulling out little known facts on each year and model of our cars. Look for a wonderful addition to our knowledge unfold when the newest edition of the handbook comes out in digital form soon.
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Several notes from me on all the discussion here:
1. I will probably not be able to attend this years convention, although I thought I would be there.
2. I am an active member, have been for 34 years and will continue to be involved in the club.
3. I believe voting rights belong to all paid members, associates and life members too.
4. The Hudson Club has annual ballots included in an issue of their monthly magazine. The membership can then vote on their Directors. The Directors then decide on who amongst them will be pres, vp, etc. The Directors are each representing a specific location in the country (i.e. Mid-West, Southeast, etc.). They make the decisions for the club. The general populace does not. This system works extremely well for that club but for it to work for us, but it would require a constitutional and by-law overhaul. We wouldn't have to go that far, we could still elect pres, vp, etc. and we could include amendments on the ballot (annual or every other year). Whoever actually mails them back into the registrar is who votes.
5. Jack Mueller has been working on judging standards for many years and many of us have helped but club management in the past few years has stopped progress. I know I will be writing standards for the Willys Aero and have already completed much of it. Charlotte (our chief judge) has always wanted written standards to refer to, as do many of the rest of us. If Jim and Gordie are in favor of that, they will have my vote, if only I could attend the National.
6. There is always a judges meeting before judgement day at our national, although it does not go into any great depths. Written reference standards would be welcome here.
7. This is the digital age. The club needs to be very involved with website. Perhaps some of the website should be protected for paid members?
8. Kaisers, Henry J's and Willys Aeros, even a few Frazers keep showing up in street rod publications. There are people out there interested in our cars. Although I am not a rodder, I am determined to be tolerant and encourage those that are if they are putting one of our favorite vehicles back on the street. We need to get them involved. The club needs to advertise again, both digitally and in magazines. Have you seen the Studebaker Club ads, "We Invented Cool" and others? We need to follow that example.
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In another thread, I listed several agenda items I would address if elected to office. They include, but are not limited to:
1. Stabilize the membership numbers.
2. Reinstate the club magazine.
3. Enhance the website.
4. Judging.
Much has been said by many so I won't rehash, but know that I am listening!
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In another thread, I listed several agenda items I would address if elected to office. They include, but are not limited to:
1. Stabilize the membership numbers.
2. Reinstate the club magazine.
3. Enhance the website.
4. Judging.
Much has been said by many so I won't rehash, but know that I am listening!
Yes I noticed that and this agenda is excellent. No issues from me. $35 is not an issue for me, and I consider so many of you friends and have received zero negativity from the website and communications, that I'll join back now and keep it going.
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Aeroman (Rick) makes excellent points as well. The Hudson Club does just what the Buick Club does except our Board of Directors (BOD) can come from anywhere, not regional. Again, change will be difficult but if it appears necessary, then go for it.
It's too bad but some old car clubs are having difficulty. KFOCI, Olds Club has corruption that cost the club money, the Studebaker Drivers Club (SDC) had to rewrite by-laws in the face of money/corruption issues and I ran for a BOD position within the BCA because of similar "power struggle" issues. One of the Packard clubs is hurting.