More on judging cars at the National

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Here is a better thought...post a copy of the form on the website.  It would be the responsibility of the judging standards committee to make sure that any revisions or new releases are immediately sent to the webmaster for posting unless they get instructions on how to post it themselves.

If it goes with a QUARTERLY there is a substantial time lag for release and if you were not a member when the QUARTERLY went out, you could miss it.

[Terry T]

HJ-ETEX
Darrin judging may be more exact in theory but since nothing has been written down, judging  has been  left to the "judging experts" who offtimes have been no more than someone who doesn't have a Darrin at the show!! 

[HJ-ETEX]

Gosh Terry, I have been hearing all these years about "this sort of upholstery stitching was ONLY done on cars #xx to #yy." I thought such issues had more or less been settled - well, I should know better because I got into the middle of the Darrin Breakfast at Matamoras (and kept my mouth shut). If you (Terry) had said there were 6 Darrins in the parking lot, one member would have have claimed there were only 5 while another would have claimed there were 7. They were a contrary bunch that morning. I wanted to express my appreciation of your efforts at the time, but I didn't find an opportunity there. I intended to use the phrase, "Herding Geese."

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

There is a big problem with leaving judging to "experts".  What if there is an accident and some of the experts get killed, or they die from natural causes.  All that know-how is gone with nothing to pass on.  That's why I wrote BUILT TO BETTER THE BEST,  took the time to do KFOCI HANDBOOK V 4.0 and am now trying to line up a safe home for my stuff.

The Ypsilanti Public Library historical's section was contacted, but when they found out how much stuff was involved, they said they didn't have room for it, and has suggested the county historical society.  I hope to meet with someone during the weekend of the Orphan Car Show.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

At this point, nobody knows for certain what is right on a lot of points.  They are relying on cars for the "correct" stuff and what do you do if someone pulls out a factory document--like a Trade Letter from Kaiser-Willys Sales Corporation covering 1954 Aero Willys models--that shows what you thought was not correct.

Yes, if we get written standards based on factory materials rather than "it looks ok to me" type thinking, there will be a lot of people who will take hits on their vehicles but at least it will be fact-based rather than assumptions. 

This should have been done c.1959 or 1960 rather than trust 1 person to know everything.

[HJ-ETEX]

Jack: It could not have been done in 59-60 for several reasons. 1) Documents were still confidential. 2) KW management was experiencing a real apathetic period. According to one account I have read, middle management wasn't particularly interested even in recording sales figures. 3) No one expected the vehicles to hang around as long as they did, even the owners at the time.   

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

I have to disagree with some of the last post:

1.  There were a number of Kaiser-Frazer/Kaiser-Willys dealers either still operating at Jeep stores or offering service.  Others were being bought out by club members, and the stuff for sale, so I have been told by the people back then, included paperwork (Confidential Bulletins, P&A Bulletins, etc) and in many cases the material was discarded.  Some of the materials in my posession came my way in the mid or late 1970's, so there was nothing "secret" about it.  This is the kind of thing I talk about when I refer to factory-based references for standards.

2.  I first met Fred Walker in 1975 and was amazed that there were no written guidelines of any sort for judging cars at a National Convention (Monroeville PA).  I was equally amazed that I, with virtually no experience at that time, was allowed to be a judge at a National Convention.  Fred's comment then, as in later years was that he could tell you what cars to use as reference points.  When I asked about curb feelers on one car, he said that was ok because he sold them to the car owner.

[HJ-ETEX]

Yes Jack, a lot of things were 'correct' because Fred had them for sale.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

It is my belief that at present, there are two factions working to end the practice of judging.  One group is fed up with the perceived incompetence of the current judging process (and there is a LOT wrong here) the other reflects car owners who know that a good, factory-based system for details, etc, would find their pristine car may not be so pristine car as they thought (which in turn lowers the car's value).

I am not saying that we go overboard for matching numbers on things (yes, there is a way to tie back serial numbers and date codes on parts to when a car was built).  I am saying that we put it in writing, and make sure that car owners as well as judges literally work off the same page.  This can only happen when the Board of Directors stands firmly behind the need for change and do what needs to be done rather than being concerned that their actions may offend someone.

Going back over posts in this department, I still maintain that the problems with judging go back to the beginnings of this club.  The information in a confidential bulletin, upholstery book, service bulletin or other factory document should have been captured to form good judging standards that would stand scrutiny.  As is with so many organizations (not just the KFOCI) nobody thought ahead to a time when the ex-dealers and factory people with such knowledge would no longer be alive & that NOS parts might become very hard to come by.   

I have tried at least 3 times since I became Club Historian to get written standards and judging guidelines in place (so car owners would not only know what judges would be looking at, but, perhaps more important, HOW they would look at things) and each time was shot down by either the Board of Directors ('written standards were not necessary" was what the one Board member said back in the 1990's when Barbara & I lived in Madison WI and he came to town for a dairy convention) or the Chief Judge who felt the judging information was on a "need to know basis" and that meant judges only.

I leave it for the entire membership to decide but I close with a question.  If the club does not offer a means to tell what is right or wrong on a car--especially a new restoration or upgrade--who will?

[pjkaiser]

I very much agree, written judging standards for everyone, so we are all on the same page.   No hidden or secretive judging criterion and if the Board doesn't agree………Change should be in the air!!!

[joefrazer]

As club president, I fully endorse documented judging standards - and using them at national meets where vehicle judging is employed. And, I put my money where my mouth is, I am one of the few club presidents who regularly judges at meets. I also mentor those who wish to become KF club judges. Not boasting...just sayin'!

[Gordie]

In the early years of our club it was mostly a social time and for the love of the cars.  There were few members who cared about exact correctness of our cars but as more and more people actually paid a shop to restore their car and then had big bucks invested it affected the values of all of our cars.  As more and more of these restored cars got judged we were woefully unprepared to judge them as it was done mostly by some of the older members memories and they resisted any changes in their systems.  There were very few of us who collected literature, and magazine ads and owners manuals and that material was what many of us learned about our cars from.  It was much later that Service Bulletins, Accessory Bulletins, Confidential Bulletins from the factory to the distributors and dealers, data books and other specialized information began to make an appearance at swap meets and thru literature dealers.  That material rarely came complete but had to be bought a few pages at a time and took years to try to assemble a complete collection and I doubt if anyone has it all.  There was just too much published by many sources but that material contains all of the necessary information on each of our cars.  Jack Mueller is an avid collector and has one of the largest Kaiser Frazer literature collections and has been the main drive to get new judging standards in place.  There was resistance by some of the older members to make any changes but the time is long past due to get accurate information about our cars to the members, judges and car owners.  Jack is close to having many of the years documented and then it will be presented to the Chief Judge and Directors for implementation in the judging system.  New information is still being discovered and the judging guidelines may need minor changes for years to come but the basic information is there and ready for us to learn from, put to use, and enjoy.  It has taken Jack years of digging through all of that paper and compiling it into useful guidelines.  It won't be ready for this year but expect big changes in the near future.

[Terry T]

Additionally, much can be gained by documenting un-restored cars.

[Corsairdeluxe]

The AACA is a kinder ,gentler place since the institution of the "Historical Preservation of Original Features" category. Not every one can afford to dismantle the entire engine compartment and then detail each piece as it was reassembled as my friend did in route to his Grand National  award. There is still room for those who strive for cosmetic excellence, but the owners of "survivors" are just as enthusiastic and their percentage of participants is increasing. Might increase our turnout if you did not feel you needed a $8,000 paint job to compete.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Ah, but how do you know they are unrestored cars?  Did the seller tell that to the buyer?  Is the seller correct in the first place?  That's where the factory documentation is important.  It will support the seller's claim or will prove fraud depending on how the car matches the documentation from the factory.

Oh,  and regarding the AACA.  They come to US when they have questions on the judging field at an AACA event because they don't know themselves.   

Unless the people running this club make the effort to address the various issues you bring up the result is what we have now.