More on judging cars at the National

[HJ-ETEX]

I would like to point out a judging quirk that the Studebaker Drivers Club had. Studebaker dealers - like any other dealer - tended to doll up their cars and wanted to get rid excess factory supplied accessories. It is claimed that wheel covers from 2 years or more earlier as well as other add-on trim items such as fender spears or hood ornaments were regularly slapped on Studebakers by the dealers. So the National Judging recognized that your 52 Champion might have wheel covers from a 48 Commander because the dealer had a set he wanted to get rid of. This was a bad decision (my opinion) because it opened the door to all sorts of nonsense as well as a general misunderstanding by the regular membership.  I talked to man who brought a 57 Champion wagon (not a Scotsman either) to a SDC International Meet. It had a 169 flathead 6 with a Motorola alternator. He seemed to think it was OK for judging because later Studebakers used Motorola alternators (His unit could have actually been off a Jeep, AMC or something else). If he had said it wasn't correct but it worked better for him and he didn't mind the points deduction, I would have understood. He had the impression the judges wouldn't object. Too bad I wasn't around after the car was judged to follow up on this.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

While anyone can do whatever they want to their own vehicles, they should also be aware of the LEGAL implications of their actions, especially when it comes to the sale of their vehicle.  Court decisions of late have lifted some Caveat Emptor responsibility off the buyer and on to the seller.  Some judges accept the idea that if a seller knows that various items are not original or correct for the vehicle being sold and fails to disclose to the buyer, the seller is intentionally committing fraud.  This can result in return of the buyer's cash, and/or fine and/or jail time.

Perhaps now, some old car owners will better understand why the setting up of written standards has to be based on factory documents of what is correct, rather than whatever is on a particular car (usually theirs) as the standard for correctness.

[Orphanauto]

HJ, you make some good points as everyone here has, but I don't see how a dealer would put hupcaps from a different year and model to get rid of a set, then he would have the hubcaps that came of the car he  switched them with. Sounds liek the motorola was switched by the dealer for a repair or something as that is not in my parts book. I also was in the Packard club for awhile, and I bought their judging book. They use factory photos of the engine bays ect, to show how you can tell what is painted black ect.. It also helps show WHERE the decals go ect.. True, the photos are black and white ( in most cases) , so, it can be tricky trying to figure out what should be shiny black verses a dull black, like on the fan, generator ect.. but, these are factory photos from manuals so they are very helpful. Still curious about dealer add ons, such as fulton sunvisors, a fulton traffic light finder, or a swamp cooler. I think these are cool accesories, and if they are YEAR correct for a car, they should not lose a point, even if it's not a FACTORY , but maybe a dealer add on. just my thoughts, keep up the good work and input everyone, this has been a very good topic.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

The comment about the Fulton sun shields reflects a problem we've run into with the standards program because others feel the same way.  It should be noted that Kaiser-Frazer and Willys had factory-branded visors for their various car products.  These items, unlike the generic Fulton and other aftermarket visors had brackets, hardware, panels, etc, specific for the vehicle(s) referenced in the factory accessory information for the particular part number...in a number of cases, you had to make the generic fit.

As long as the club votes to accept aftermarket stuff (which sometimes was junk) as OK, so be it.

[HJ-ETEX]

Orphanauto, the idea was that the dealer put on more deluxe, flashier items. So a car that had plain hubcaps got fancy wheelcovers (small dog dish vs full coverage) and rear view mirrors (outside rear view mirrors were not standard on cars until 1966 and trucks didn't have necessarily have interior rear view mirrors until later).
In the 1970's and 80's dealers were "scotch guarding" the upholstery and applying "color sealer" (plastic based wax replacement).

[HJ-ETEX]

Regarding after market dress up items, the Chief Judge needs to remind everyone before judging what is accepted. If it is an easily removed item like curb feelers - or your swamp cooler - I tended to ignore them even though I may not have cared for their appearance. If it was something that replaced a stock item like blue dot taillights or required modification of the car such as drilling a hole, then I would count it non KF. 
Clear plastic seat covers are accepted because they can not hide the condition of the seat fabric.
For similar reasons, a steering wheel cover may or may not be counted as non KF. If it hid the condition of the steering wheel, it would be non KF.

[Orphanauto]

You make a very good point HJ. I think the judges or judging rules should have a basic idea list of what is considered acceptable such as curb feelers,swamp coolers ect.. I personally don't have a swamp cooler, I was just bringing that up as an example of what a dealer may sell to make a few extra bucks, or a new owner could have went and bought right after he bought the brand new Kaiser Frazer. Jack made a great point that since KF did sell thier own sunvisors, it should be that one, not a fulton, or other aftermarket make. Perhaps only 1/2 a point loss for that, just thinking out load. I feel that "year correct" items should not lose points, but, it maybe better to take it off for judging. I personally like to leave a magazine or paper from the year of the car in the front seat, also year of manufactor plates on the car give it that extra cool look. No extra points for that of course, just looks cool. even have my wife and daughter wear their poodle skirts haha,

[HJ-ETEX]

To restate what I have said, the Judges don't hate you or hate your car. It is important for the judges to meet before the judging event to 1) sort out assignments and 2) instruct the new recruits and remind the older judges of what to look for. It isn't just waffles, fruit and juice at the judges breakfast.
When Fred Walker was Chief Judge, he had a meeting before the judging started. He took the prospective judges to Charlotte Dayton's son's car (which wasn't to be judged) and he ran over the judging form. Most of the students were willing to count off more on the car than Fred was.

[Gordie]

Regarding outside mirrors there was a K-F authorized mirror for every year K-F product and since they are a requirement for every State there should be at least one installed on all Vehicles.  You could not get turn signals on early Kaisers but they should be accepted as a safety issue as well as seat belts.  Most clubs allow these safety items.

[HJ-ETEX]

Safety Items: Certain things have been allowed for National Judging based on the idea of their "safety value." The most obvious item was a seat belt. So seat belts in a KF car (Darrins may be special issue) could not be charged as non-KF, but they would be judged on their appearance. I would think a clamp-on type outside rear view mirror would be covered by this. Other safety items included air conditioning (Fred had a number of 6V clutches for York compressors made up) and CB radios(!). I have actually seen a 6V CB radio in a 62 VW. It wouldn't be a correct period piece for a 47-55 KF car though.

[AZ_HJ]

Excuse me but am I a little slow, how is air conditioning a 'safety' item? I grew up in Phoenix, AZ and my parents would rather roll down the windows rather than run the AC in the car. I never had to go to the hospital due to not having AC on in a car driving around a hot Phoenix day in the 60's or 70's. I also think a CB radio would not be a 'safety' item. I think they were popularized by that CB/Trucker song. I had one in my 1970 Chevy Nova and I think I used in once to call for a friend to come help me with a flat tire. It is also to note that I had a car stop and help just after I got a hold of my friend.

I think we need to rethink some of these 'safety' items.


Mark

[Fid]

There was a law in Nebraska in the early 70s which stated that in order to pass the saftey inspection required to license a car, it had to have an outside mirror.  My '53 Henry J has one for this reason and it's not the clamp-on type.  I did not lose points for it.  I should have removed it when I had the car repainted so I could then find the correct type but that slipped my mind.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Traditionally, safety items were things mandated by various states, even if the mandate came about after the car was built (such as outside mirrors or seat belts).    As for air conditioning or other items that may have been medical related, it was strongly suggested that such cars go into the modified class.

The problem is not so much judges meetings, etc, but club acceptance standards coliding with what individuals add to their cars for comfort, performance, etc and expecting their cars to be considered "original" not considering that original meant as the car left the factory.   That definition would also take into account cars that were picked up by the first retail owners at the factory...these cars could be equipped with dealer-installed accessories and in some cases a couple items not considered part of the regular option list (sorry, curb feelers, fuzzy dice, swamp coolers and a lot of other aftermarket add-ons were not available).  This is based on lists of items that would be installed at the Courtesy Garage on retail drive-aways from Willow Run; the lists are found in various Confidential Bulletins and are supposed to be included in the final version of Judging Standards.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

One other item on a slightly different note....

It's come to my attention that, what I understood to be a hold on standards development (format issue to be decided by officers and directors of the KFOCI at the National Convention) work has continued.  I take no responsibility nor do I endorse anything being passed off as Judging Standards that I have not seen and been able to offer changes, etc.  If others want to do this and exclude me, that is their right and if that is the sense of the club, it's ok with me.  Oh, yes, if that is the case, I will go along with it as a regular member.  If the group feels I cannot make a contribution to this as Club Historian, maybe I need to be replaced.

[Gordie]

Jack, you have made more contributions to this club than any other member ever.  We all appreciate what you have done and are doing and we are going to be the recipient of new judging standards that are fair and that will really work for the club.  Don't be discouraged by anyone who is not on the side of getting these new judging standards implemented.  We wouldn't be where we are without all of your input.  Keep it coming!