More on judging cars at the National

[pnw_oldmags]

Jack,  Sorry if I have offended you ... If I am the one that has done that on the Judging Guidelines.  I am a paper collector and a IT guy who likes to organized things.  Not a judge, not a historian.  The format for the Judging Standards you took to our Pres and I sent to our Chief Judge was just a recommend format.   Your taking it to the Pres and getting his tentative approval on the format was great.  Since then I have been working on expanding the sample format some and getting one actually printed in Draft form for the National has been my only goal.   

Final approval of content and format is well out of my hands.   I am just trying to produce a product for review.  I offered to be the assembler of the information and the format policeperson but have not heard back from our Chief Judge who should be responsible for all of the actual content in each class.  I do not think our Chief Judge spends much time on the Web.  Assembling these documents will take lots of collaberation, and lots of correction.  It will not be an easy task but feel it will be worth the hundreds of hours required to complete it.

If this project is to be a success - everyone - especially you have to be involved and provide a lot of input.  Jim

[HJ-ETEX]

Mark, Even when a person tries through the choice of words, they often fail on typed responses such as found in this forum to convey their opinions where as if we had a face-to-face conversation, the tone of my voice, body language, and certainly facial expressions would add as much to the message as the words. Well, of course AC doesn't add any safety value to a KF car and if someone did have a CB radio in a KF car, it would be 99 44/100% likely to be a solid state 12V unit from 1975 or later. I have seen several setups that were run off of small 12V batteries such as used in lawn equipment. In which case, it would be portable and affect judging about as much as an extra pillow for your rump.   

[HJ-ETEX]

Once again, I have to remind members that if they want the straight story on judging at the National, they need to show up and participate. When I consider my previous posts, they were mostly about previous experiences. A lot of those things, such as extra points for fog lights or allowing CB radios aren't done any more.

[Fid]

This topic now spans 7 pages. That's got to be a record on these forums.  Obviously a "hot" topic for discussion. It is interesting that's for sure.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

It's always been an interesting discussion item and reflects the desire by people to "personalize" their car with things not original or factory but still want their car to be considered factory correct.  More money than ever before rides on how original and correct KFOCI judging at National Conventions evaluates the car. 

[AZ_HJ]

HJ_ETEX - - I fully agree with you that members should show up and participate. I also strongly believe that all judging standards should be documented and very accessable to all members. It should not be word of mouth but something a new member can request or is automatic with his membership. I have been to two nationals (Flagstaff and Chicago) and still have never seen anything in writing in regards to many things discussed in this part of the forum. I am strongly encorged that efforts are being made to get this all down in an updated standards. I hope this will include things like a detail list of what 'safety' items are acceptable and how it is recommend that they be incorporated in the car to minimize the impact on the originality of the car.

My earlier comment about AC and CB was not directly at you, but in general how these items just do not seem to fit into 'safety'. I wanted to challenge others to think more about what should and should not be acceptable. We are in a new age of cell phones, internet, and the loss of longtime members due to advance age. We all share the strong interest in Kaiser-Frazer and we are very passionate about it.

[Terry T]

I totally agree with you about having something written down.
When I stood up at the Darrin Breakfast in Chicago, I basically got booed off the podium when I brought up the subject of written Judging Standards.  Some of the arguements against were:  we have experts that know what is correct; we don't want to be like those Corvette owners who worry about direction of screw slots; standards will scare owners from showing their cars.
Having been a advocate of detailed standards for years, I am very elated that progress is finally being made, and to a greater involvement than I had expected.  I do wish we were movng faster.  The written standards can also be used by those during the restoration process. 

[pnw_oldmags]

AZ-HJ:  In the instruction section of the existing Judging Sheets it does list the acceptible safety items.  No point loss for seat belts, air conditioner, CB, electric fuel pump, outside safety mirrors, oil coolers, directional signals, battery cut-off or clear seat covers..   
At the time, CB Radios installed in cars to help communicate between cars in a caravan or during a break down they were probably very much a safety item. 
http://www.circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/KF%20Meet%20Entry%20Judging%20Sheet.pdf

[AZ_HJ]

Well do I feel like an idiot!  pnw_oldmags you are correct that the existing Judging Sheet does list these safety items.

[ben-tex]

I have observed the various discussions (if they can be called that) on judging since about 1980 or so. The interest in having written standards (other than the judging sheets) comes and goes. Mostly it just goes away... If I were a betting man I would lay 10/1 that there will be no written standards...maybe when we are in Kaiser Heaven lol.

[Gordie]

Hi Ben,  I wish you were a betting man as I would take you up on this bet.  Judging guidelines are well along and need a little fine tuning but they will be here soon and they will be great for everyone including the car owners, judges and the curious.  Jack Mueller has worked hard formulating this and the various years are being checked over by experts and we will all be proud of them.

[HJ-ETEX]

Terry T: I thought the Darrin people were further along on judging standards than the rest of the KF Universe. Judging of the cars seems to be a lot more exacting!

[HJ-ETEX]

But an important aspect of judging has been touched upon in the previous posts even if the authors have not realized it. For a number of years, the judging forms were closely guarded. You could get your form if you asked after the judging ceremony, but you could not get a blank form. We published a copy in the Quarterly back around 1987 which was a real breakthrough - BUT it was not what would be used the next year.
It used to be I would visit members and when I heard complaints about judging I would ask if they had the judging sheet. Most did not know they could request the sheet after the awards presentation. With 2 members, they actually had the sheet and I went over what was marked and gave my interpretation of why things were marked. One of the 2 I thought the items counted off were reasonable, but on the other, well, I thought the judge had been especially kind.

[AZ_HJ]

Here is something to think about: What about including the Judging Sheet as part of the KFOCI Handbook?

[HJ-ETEX]

Mark: There are 2 problems about including a judging sheet as a page in the KF Handbook. 1) The Judging Committee (and there is one) reserves the right to alter the form. There are revision numbers at the bottom of the form. 2) The KF Handbook is not altered that often so any form that is included would be quickly out of date.
So frankly, it would be more appropriate to print it in the Quarterly.