Transferring VIN tags

[boatingbill]

When I lived in Minnesota, I found a 51' Frazer 4 door hardtop in a barn in the far north part of the state. We put some
gas in and pulled started it. The car ran so good I drove it back to Minneapolis. After the excitement wore off, I crawled
under and was shocked at all the rust from salt and sitting on a dirt floor. It had some bondo in the doors and front
fenders, but the floor and trunk were badly rusted as was the frame. I had a lead on a 4 door sedan and was trying to
figure out how to merge the two and save the hardtop. I would have saved the hardtop title and sent in the sedan
title as salvage/junked. The project was beyond me and a body shop wanted a fortune to do this. I sold the car to
someone John Haller (he had a "51 also) knew and I believe it became a parts car. If a title change could save a rare
car I think a discussion should be considered as opposed to just junking it.

[Kory Fox]

Thank you Mark. I'll have to contact them and see what they can do.

[Carpenter]

I am NOT saying don't do it except on the Dragon, convertibles, early Virginians, Darrin and 55's.  (Roadmaster)

Soooo, a 55 swap is OK?

[joefrazer]

To answer an earlier question, no KF did not stamp their sheet metal with the VIN.

[Roadmaster49]

I am NOT saying don't do it except on the Dragon, convertibles, early Virginians, Darrin and 55's.  (Roadmaster)

Soooo, a 55 swap is OK?

No, but understand this is just my opinion.  55's are rare, and last year for a MAKE, not just a series.   My only interest in this comment is ethical, not practical.

In the grand scheme of things, few people in the collector world care about 1955 Kaisers BUT if you owned a late 1955 car, and it was a rusty mess and you removed the tag, put it on a 54 Manhattan and maybe the hood, etc and restored it at a lesser cost than the restoration of the rusty car - than the law has an issue with that. 

If the buyer paid a premium for a "true" 1955 car and later found out it was a rebadged 1954 Kaiser, then the perception and actuality of value is diminished. 

There has been the so-called "last Kaiser ever built" for sale for years for $10,000 or so.  Are you buying just the "tag" or the archival aspect of that car?   If that "tag" was removed and placed on a 54 Manhattan, would you jump at it ?   Would you feel like you own the last Kaiser ever built?  Or "just a tag"? 

So I think 55's have to be separated out just like Virginians, convertibles etc. 

[Roadmaster49]

Virtually every state discourages this practice so the process would have to be done pretty well.  It's illegal to swap plates to another car.

I am NOT saying don't do it except on the Dragon, convertibles, early Virginians, Darrin and 55's.  THAT should be discouraged 100%.

Consider the market for muscle cars where documentation is so important to value.  You have a pristine 1970 Dodge Challenger 6 cylinder with a great body.  You have a rusty beyond recognition 1970 Challenger Hemi 4 speed car which if in auction ready shape would be a $200,000 car.  The VIN plates (and Hemi parts) are switched and the seller fraudulently states it is a Hemi 4 speed car with "documentation".

Is it?  No.   So that's my only caution because this subject has been beat to death over on the AACA Forum where the subject pops up from time to time.  So while technically illegal, who cares if the car is a "normal" KF car and not one which trades on rarity and provenance such as a Darrin or Dragon.

Dragons are borderline, but I would not want to even buy a Dragon which is one of 1277, that is nothing but a retagged Manhattan.

I'll go with you on this as far as unscrewing a few screws & switching tags. As for swapping all your original model parts to a new body stamping, I'm going to have to go with the factory on this one.

I know muscle car clones are a problem but I'm not sure your example would be considered a clone since a complete set of original factory Hemi parts were taken from a properly titled but rotted body shell and installed onto an identicle body stamping.

Practially any rusty body shell can be repaired with herculean effort. The question would be, what percentage still connected to the body tag is original, or percentage of repair sections erase the body's original identity as compared to a solid replacement shell?

I remember reading years ago about a court ruling on a hydroplane name Miss Budweiser. Going from memory........ so I could be off on some of this.......the boat was almost totally wrecked and rebuilt from just one original sponson. There was a suit because the original boat design would not comply with current class restrictions for new construction. The judge found that the sponson constituted the original boat, found in Miss Budweisers favor and she continued to be grandfathered in.

Mark

Great counterpoint.  It's the INTENT of that Hemi scenario that is the concern, it's based on greed more than a desire to own a cool old car, in my opinion. 

Just playing devil's advocate here and saying proceed with caution and document intent.   We live in a litigious society. 

I pointed out the high value cars as examples not to mess with. The pedestrian standard bearers of the KF world probably won't see high profit potential and are not a worry. 

Also, remember they make new bodies for 55-57 Chevy's, Mustangs, Camaros and Corvettes.  They make new frames for my last car a 1962 Triumph TR4, and most of the body.  So, it's a grey area, but intent should be documented and especially for a future sale.

[Roadmaster49]

I've been wondering about this for quite some time. When I 1st got my 48 Kaiser from my grandfather I had all the body work and paint done. The shop doing the work went under just as it was being finished. I had to scramble just to get the car back as they were closing the doors. Discovered later that several things were missing including the body tags. Can't remember who it was, but someone on this forum sent me a set from a car they're father had scrapped years ago. My plan is to attach them but I guess they won't match the title. But what else can I do? I never will sell the car anyways. One of my sons will get it when I die.

If the title was issued before the shop work, then it trumps the tags.  Just get some new tags, document everything and you are made whole.  No need to rebadge with another VIN. In fact that would legally cloud the issue.  Again, no offense, but a slab sider Kaiser is not a car that would count as an ethical (greed) issue. 

[Roadmaster49]

I've been wondering about this for quite some time. When I 1st got my 48 Kaiser from my grandfather I had all the body work and paint done. The shop doing the work went under just as it was being finished. I had to scramble just to get the car back as they were closing the doors. Discovered later that several things were missing including the body tags. Can't remember who it was, but someone on this forum sent me a set from a car they're father had scrapped years ago. My plan is to attach them but I guess they won't match the title. But what else can I do? I never will sell the car anyways. One of my sons will get it when I die.

If the title was issued before the shop work, then it trumps the tags.  Just get some new tags, document everything and you are made whole.  No need to rebadge with another VIN. In fact that would legally cloud the issue.  Again, no offense, but a slab sider Kaiser is not a car that would count as an ethical (greed) issue.

There are whole levels of legal correction that could occur here. You could hire an attorney which would get a judicial order stating that the tags were lost in restoration by the shop, and a legal order would allow the remanufacture of the tags, but it isn't necessary in my opinion.  As stated, your title trumps the tags.

[Carpenter]

Where is it stamped on a 55 Kaiser?

[Carpenter]

Unable to read that.

[Aeroman]

Click on the picture to enlarge it. I have seen this exact service bulletin. I once found Old Toby's hidden serial number, but have been unable to find it again.
Years ago, when I was still in Los Angeles, Old Toby's registration and title were registered to the engine number. I was working at a car dealership at the time and their DMV person gave me a form to change the registration to the VIN number, which I did. Also, I bought another Aero once and, in order to get it home, attached my VIN plate and my license plates. Luckily, I did not get caught, because the cars were different colors.