More on judging cars at the National

[AZ_HJ]

Here is something that others would be interested in reading in regards to judging rules. It is the judging rules for the Classic Car Club of America.


Looks like they are focus on functionality, condition, and authenticity. I am not aware that KFOCI even ask if the engine runs.



http://www.classiccarclub.org/pdfs/CCCA%20Judging%20Rules_02_15_10.pdf

[AZ_HJ]

In an earlier post Jack stated, "That's correct, but we're fast getting to the point where you can't find the stuff."

To that I like to say; One of the things I really enjoy about restoring my Kaiser-Frazer (Henry J) is the hunt for the parts I need to do it right.

[Fid]

And if a car has the "correct" parts then it should score higher than one that does not. That's the whole point.

[Logan]

And further, if we can no longer "find that stuff," to what purpose is this club if not to make it available through, e.g., the manufacturing fund, etc.?  Sorry that this is kind of a side note, but we all have an interest in preserving KF products, and when we see problems, we should step forward with solutions.

[HJ-ETEX]

Yes, ben is wrong on this. Modified is for major driveline and/or body changes. I argued last year that a turbo charged 226 Kaiser should be in the Modified class but it was decided (and the Chief Judge did consult with others so it wasn't just an arbitrary ruling) that the car should be in the a Stock class.

[HJ-ETEX]

And a word on things that you can't get... Certain things are consumable. If a KF product showed up for judging with the original tires, that would be extremely notable because tires get worn or become aged and dangerous. You would expect tires to be replaced as well as the battery, belts, and spark plugs among other things. Since we are trying to show our cars with the guide "as it left the factory" I would believe a limited acceptance of modern replacements  - as the Club has already done with Champion J8/J8C spark plugs - would be in order.

[ben-tex]

6 cylinders instead of 4 is a "major" change in my opinion. And of course the engine change is not the only one is it when considering the change from say Corsair to Corsair Deluxe.

[Fid]

Correct Ben.  There is a very nice blue '53 "Corsair" (not deluxe) that I've seen at a few meets and I saw it at the National in Hoffman Estates in 2007. It has a six cylinder engine, which a Corsair would not have had, windsheild bright work, which a Corsair would not have had but a very nice car just the same. I'd say it was the same modification as my '52 Vagabond but the difference is  Vagabonds were Vagabonds regardless of engine whereas Corsairs were 4 cylinders and Corsair Deluxes were 6 cylinders. Does that change how it would be judged? All these questions!

[ben-tex]

When I suggested that a 4 cyl HJ that had been changed to 6 cyl should be in the modified class I was merely stating my opinion. An opinion can't be right or wrong can it?

Now to the question of turbocharged engines being left in a stock class. LOL

[Fid]

It's interesting discussion that's for sure.  I think everyone knows from past posts I'm not a big fan of trophies or judging but I do enjoy discussing it from a historical/authenticity standpoint.  I always keep in mind that these cars are almost 60 years old and none of them have survived without someone doing some type of maintenance to it.  I lived through the 60s and 70s when the only place you could find parts was in whatever salvage yard you could locate that still had KF products in it so you often had to settle for whatever you could find to keep your car on the road. This means many of them had non-authentic parts on them.  This was a good thing as it kept them on the road and in use but the down side is, it can cloud the historical info about them.  It doesn't make them bad cars by any means.  Of course there are many out there who don't care about the historical accuracy either and enjoy their cars and the hobby just as much as those who do.
I don't think any conclusions will drawn as a result of this discussion but it is interesting discussion just the same.

[Orphanauto]

This is a very interesting discussion. I am enjoying the views. I am a purist, and restore my cars as they came from the factory, with the exception, that sometimes i may add a accessory that was correct, but the car didn't have, such as adding a correct radio to a non-radio car. I personally feel, if a car has a option that the dealer could have put in that year, then there should be no mark down for that. Such as if a dealer could have put a swamp cooler on a car to make a few bucks more , then it should not lose any points even though the factory didn't sell them. Having said that, I do feel that changing the 4 to a six, and all the other changes should NOT lose as many points as changing a 226 6cyl. to a Ford ar Chevy v8. I think in Fids case, just losing say, 1 point for the plate not matching the rest, instead of losing a point for each thing changed would be better. Considering the car body shell, could have been used for a 6, and he used ALL kaiser parts, no other brand. The other option, is to have it judged as a modified, and then he can't lose any points. But, thats just my opinion, and since you asked, hahaha. I think when  it comes to judging at the Nationals, for the cars that are suppose to be restored as all original, you need to be very specific with original factory options, or dealer available options. Most people who will spend alot of time and money to restore a car like it was new, really do try to make it that way.

[Fid]

I wonder how Fred Walker felt about the early 1951 Henry Js having a factory heater or radio in them? If his stance was "If the accessory was introduced after the car it is not correct" then any of the early Js with heaters or radios should lose points as those accessories were not available till later in the model year. The radio conversion for the J, part number 100219 mentioned in the handbook, was introduced Sept 18, 1950 so an early car should only have that one in it by Fred's standards.  I tend to believe that if someone bought a car from a dealer and decided they wanted to add something that wasn't available at the time they bought the car, there is nothing that would stop them from having a dealer retrofit it. In the case of the Henry J, there were retro-kits that allowed dealers to install the larger/longer door weather strip and the rubber scuff plates in the 1951 models which didn't have these items originally.  For that reason, those items should be correct on those cars.

[AZ_HJ]

What are members thoughts on judging of Henry Js that have been Two-Toned per Advance Information Bulletin No. 69 Dtd Nov. 28, 1950? I plan to do this to my 1952 Henry J Vagabond Deluxe. My Paint is 325 (Cape Verde Green Metallic) and Trim 4424 Cape Verde Green Dragon Vinyl. This is not listed in the AIB No. 69 so what would be my options for upper colors?

[mbflemingkf]

Personally, I enjoyed the comment about the KF Manufacturing Fund.

[Fid]

Mark, check out the cars in this postcard I bought years ago. The photo is Raliegh, NC in the mid 1950s.  There is a Henry J visible on the right side, gray/blue '51 without a trunk lid. The third car on the left side is a tutone '52 Vagabond, light green over dark.  Likely dealer applied since the photo was taken in 1952 and the car was probably still original

Also, this car was for sale in Northern, MN a few years ago

It appears to have the factory sanctioned tutone schema. It also looks like it had a Continental Kit on it at one time along with those Finliner tailights. It could be the same car as in that post card!
Anyway, these photos may give you some idea of what might have been used to tutone the cars. Looks like Ceramic green on the tops of both... unless they are the same car. The Continental kit license light is mounted on the bumper of the MN car.