More on judging cars at the National

[pnw_oldmags]

AZ, 
I think in '52 Cape Verde changed into Forest Green Metallic
http://www.circlekf.com/kfcars/colorbasic056.htm

Follow the link to View Color Plate and look at sheet 2 for #325

Then look at Service bulletin 319R for two tone combinations that were suggested
http://www.circlekf.com/kfcars/kfsb319r.pdf

Advanced Information Bulletin 69 Page 1 http://www.circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Advance/AIB072.JPG

Advanced Information Bulletin 69 Page 2 http://www.circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Advance/AIB072pg2.JPG

Advanced Information Bulletin 69 Page 3 http://www.circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Advance/AIB072pg3.JPG

[Fid]

The colors on the cars in pix I posted is not Cape Verde green. It's just to give an idea of how they may been done in green but perhaps not as Cape Verde green is lighter.  My '52 Vagabond is Cape Verde green.  Always thought that was an interesting color name since "verde" means "green" in Spanish.  Translates into "Cape Green green"

[AZ_HJ]

Fid,

As you know your Vag and my Vag are the same color. They are both Cape Verde Green (325). The Kaiser-Frazer color chips show Cape Verde Green much darker than what our cars are. I do not think that age or fading has caused this difference. I looked at location on my car that have been covered up all these years and they are the same shade as the rest of the car. I kind of like the shade of the color chip better than what is on the car.


Mark

[pnw_oldmags]

Please bear with me here.  In 1951 Paint color 325 was Cape Verde Green, in 1952 Paint Color 325 was called Forest Green Metallic.  Are you guys saying your 1952 HJ Vagabonds are actually 1951 HJs recycled so the paint would still be the 1951 color??  Just want to know.

[AZ_HJ]

I am not sure you would say 'recycle', but they could be called 'VERY late' '51 Henry J's

Confidential Bulletin No. 70, Dtd Dec. 5, 1951 anounced the 1952 Henry J Vagabond. This was the first time you see Color 325 Cape Verde Green (M) offered on a Henry J.

[AZ_HJ]

Looks like the only dark green offered on the 1951 Henry J was Crystal Green, which almost looks black in the color chips.

Then for the 1952 Henry J Vagabond they introduce the Cape Vere Green (M) and no longer had the Crystal Green. The 1952 HJ Vagabond was offered in Onyx Back.

[Fid]

The 1952 Henry J Vagabonds were leftover '51s that weren't sold so everything about them is 1951 based except the hood ornament and the script on the side. Most had a Continental tire kit on them but that was available on 1951s too. The Sunstar Cape Verde green Henry Js are a darker green too and I do like it better. A fellow here in a restoration shop ordered me some paint based only on my paint code, 325.  I haven't looked at that paint yet but maybe I should. When I had the tire put on the back, I had the paint computer matched because it was more of a 90s metallic.  Now that I think about it, the engine compartment and dash are original paint and the color is very close to what's on it. The real difference is in the metallic component which in the 1950s was a little more subdued than it is now.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

1952 Vagabond colors should generally be the 1951 color.  This is because in many cases, the bodies were built up as well as other assemblies (like the front clip) expecting to be 1951 model years cars, but no orders from dealers came through for the various combinations.  It was like the 1950 model year, where the company had thousands of finished bodies but nobody wanted the cars.

Also, please note I met with Mike Knittel over the weekend duringthe Mid-Atlantic Region meet.  We discussed the various formats submitted from different members and we agreed to the following:

1.  The format suggested by Jim Betts would be the "standard" format for a document with a current working title of "Restoration Guide".  This would include pictures of various features specific to the make/model/year covered.  There would also be a general section, that may end up mostly pictures, showing general items such as condition of chrome or paint, and how condition reflects point loss (a little pitted chrome, badly pitted chrome, chrome with areas pealing off or rusted, etc). 

2.  The management of the KFOCI would make a series of policy decisions covering things like "acceptible vs. original" because you cannot get a something any more and demand would be too limited to make reproduction viable, retrofitting of options, etc. 

[amkfken]

My .02c on judging--My 51 J was judged at a national with a Mustang radiator, a Rambler transmission and a Studebaker overdrive, NO points deducted!!
Also my Blue Satin paint is really a Volkswagen color (I forgot the name), green engine paint is really Rustoleum,great match!!
Just depends on your judge!!!
As an additional note, applying to ALL cars, 4or5 color coats followed by many clear coats is NOT the way any cars came from the factory, including K-F products.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Was the HJ judged in Modified/Special or with the other HJ's?  Modified/Special looks at workmanship rather than originality.  If it was in the regular HJ class, it's another example of how judges are NOT properly trained, and  how judges are NOT presently supplied with the tools needed to do their job properly.

[HJ-ETEX]

amkfken: That Is So Special! NOT! AMCs and Studebakers both used T96 transmissions like the HJs. Actually there is a difference between 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder HJ radiators in the texture of the core. For judging purposes, it doesn't make a difference. Of course if your radiator required noticeable cutting of the front fender support sheet metal (radiator yoke & sheet metal in front of it) it would have been noticed -  especially if it was crudely done. At the paint store I used to patronize, I was told import colors are often good choices to replace pre-1965 US car colors.

[AZ_HJ]

HJ-TEX,

You stated that, "Actually there is a difference between 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder HJ radiators in the texture of the core." To my knowledge there is no difference between the 4 cyl and 6 cyl radiators as far as the '51 Henry J and '52 HJ Vagabond goes. The 1951 Henry J Combined Chassis and Body Parts List Model 513 and 514 Issued Nov 1951 show one Part Number (KF P/N 209747) for both the 513 and 514. These were tube and fin style radiators.

Can you give more details supporting you statement about them being different 'texture'!

I did find in the Henry J Shop Manual the following on page 55, COOLING, SECTION 4 - RADIATOR  " The later model Henry J's use a cellular type radiator while earlier model Henry J's have a fin and tube type radiator." Maybe HJ-TEX you have been mislead by individuals using the wrong style radiator by year.

[ben-tex]

Two different part numbers are called out for HJs in the various parts books, BUT there is NO distinction in 4 and 6 cylinder applications. In the 51 "full" parts manual the numbers as listed above are correct. In the "supplement" issued Febb 1953 the radiator part number is 213376 . The odd thing is this number is called out for not only the "true" 52 (and up) models but also for the Vagabond.

I know from various ads that the radiators were supplied by an outfit named Young for the 51s. It may be that the parts number changes were due to changing sourcing to another manufacturer.

[Fid]

"Young" in Racine, Wisconsin.  I believe the shop manual states that the later cars had the cellular type radiator and considers replacing the straight fin type with the cellular type an upgrade.  I had a radiator shop go through a cellular type for me last year and the old-timer there told me it was a "great radiator, very well made, hang onto it."  But the shop manual and the parts manual make no distinction between radiators used in 4 cylinder models and 6 cylinder models.

[AZ_HJ]

Ben,

I agree with everything you said, but it is odd that in the Parts List For 1952 Henry J Vagabond Model 523 and 524, issued Jan 1952 there is no indication that it had the KF P/N 213376 Radiator opposed to the one used on the '51 HJ.

I think the Part List "supplement" issued Feb 1953 is a bit hard to buy into totally. They use the series column to distinguish between the Vagabond and the '52 Corsairs. A= Vagabonds, B = Corsairs, and <blank> you would rightfully assume is that it is applicable to both, as long as you had something in the column for 523 and/or 524.

My read is that KF P/N 209747 Radiator is the Tube and Fin Radiator manufactured by the Young Co. The KF P/N 213376 Radiator is the Cellular (honeycomb) type radiator, manufacturer  unknown.