More on judging cars at the National

[ben-tex]

Yes it gets a bit confusing!

And then along comes a judge that can't tell the difference between a radiator and a ?

[Gordie]

Hey guys,  sometimes we as restorers know more about our cars thru research than the judges who have to know something about all of the K-F products including Willys.  If there is any question about any part of your car document it.  Copy the parts book page regarding radiators, hood ornaments or whatever the judges may call you on.  If you have the proof in a folder the judge will have to look at it and perhaps rethink his position.  No one knows it all about our cars but we are usually the authority on our own cars.  Be prepared!

[AZ_HJ]

Gordie,

I agree with your suggestion. The only thing is sometimes it is hard to know what the judge(s) will not know.

I would have not thought there would be an issue with a radiator type.


Best,

Mark

[Orphanauto]

There have been some very good suggestions. I would like to suggest that those interested in being a judge please say so. Then please be prepared to learn EVERYTHING that you can on a particular model, or year. For example, you can be a judge for the manhattans only, or a the Frazers only or perhaps just all 1954-55, perhaps just Darrin. This would make it easier for a judge to know alot on that particuler year, or model, ect.. With information as to what accessories were avialable for that particular car, the judge could be very good. I think, ( my opinion only ) that to be a judge on something , say a HJ, the judge should not have one in the show for judging, this eliminates the judge from being partial ect.. Since I don't own a Hj, or a Darrin I could learn as much as possible, then be a judge, With the judges getting together for discusions on anything that comes up. Due to my job, I can not make the commitment, or I would love to. This is just an idea, but what do you guys think?

[Gordie]

The new judging guidelines will make it much easier for anyone to help in the judging as all of the obvious things will be spelled out and proper accessories will be listed for each car.  No one who has a car entered in our shows can judge their own class now and that is at it should be.  Colors could be a problem as old paint chip sheets have darkened and are not true matches.but in some cases there will be several cars the same color and often the under hood color is original.  Many parts of judging apply to all cars such as paint condition, chrome plating, tire size and white wall width and there are many more but that will be explained in the new judging forms.  As a new De Soto Airflow owner I recently went to my first Airflow National Meet.  I signed up for judging and had a great experience and learned a lot from my fellow judges.  I urge you to do the same at our K-F meets.  No one is an expert on everything but it is amazing how much you can learn just by rubbing elbows with the judges and helping out.  We need all of your help as a half dozen or so judges can't do it alone and we should all be trying to learn as much as we can about our great cars.  Someday all of the old timers will be gone and guess who will be the new experts?  We need to start helping out now!

[pnw_oldmags]

When assembling the judging guidelines what would be acceptable reference sources to establish a judging guideline:
- Factory Photos?
- Service Bulletins?
- Service Standards Manuals?
- Shop Manuals?
- Parts Manuals?
- Parts & Accessory Bulletins?
- Confidential Bulletins?
- Advance Information Bulletins?
- Press Releases?
- KFOCI Handbook?
- Last Onslaught?
- Magazine Advertisement?

I have my opinion on these - What is yours?

Each and every guideline should reference the source to help resolve challenges I would think.

Your comments please.

[AZ_HJ]

-Factory Photos? I am not sure i would trust these as some of these maybe prototypes, mock-ups, or artist renderings. These maybe used as illustrations to show something that is supported by primary documentation.

The following are great source of information and should be the primary sources of information
- Service Bulletins?
- Service Standards Manuals?
- Shop Manuals?
- Parts Manuals?
- Parts & Accessory Bulletins?
- Confidential Bulletins?
- Advance Information Bulletins?
- Press Releases?

I would not use these as primary sources of information.
- KFOCI Handbook?
- Last Onslaught?
- Magazine Advertisement?

This of course is my opinion.

[HJ-ETEX]

Boy, I kick started the discussion, didn't I? The best comment I have seen is Gordie's "I signed up for judging and had a great experience and learned a lot from my fellow judges.  I urge you to do the same at our K-F meets." Look, the judges don't hate you or your car and if you understand what the judges are looking for, you may appreciate the process more. I had an idea one time that if you wanted your car judged at the KF National, you had to have served as a judge previously or you were willing to serve as a judge that day.  That way you would understand the judging sheet and how the system worked.  There were a couple of problems with this idea based on several Club members I know.

[HJ-ETEX]

The 1st year I judged was at the Manitowac National. That was the year they had so many 54-55 Kaisers that it took about 7 hours to judge them all. When they asked me what cars I had experience with, I said HJs ,51 & 52 Kaisers. At that time, the Club interest in the HJs was at a low point and I got type cast as a HJ expert. There was 7 HJ/Allstates  as I recall and halfway through judging, a guy pulled up with a Darrin on a trailer right beside the HJs. He told me, "I need to get my car judged right now because I have an appointment at 1." I told him that he needed to talk to the Chief Judge (pointing at Fred)  first. I am not sure his car even got judged (rules say you have to be registered at the meet to be judged and I doubt he was) and I actually hope it didn't. 

[pnw_oldmags]

I judged 53Ks at Prescott.  Got match up with a Pro and had a great experience.  The only down side was Rudy brought a Darrin to the Meet.  Took it out of the trailer for the judging and then stashed it back in the trailer once he was judged.  Because I was busy judging for several hours did not even get to see what color the Darrin was.

[HJ-ETEX]

And I would like to reply to Orphanauto's post. In recent years the judging at the KF National has tried to have teams of judges for a class instead of a single person. Typically this would be one person bending down and getting dirty while a second handled the clipboard. Myself, I have made (at least) 2 clerical errors on judging sheets so I welcome such help. In such a system the person handling the clipboard may not know that much about the cars in the class or even own such a car, but in the process of judging they will learn!

The last 12 years or so it has been the custom for the Host of the National Convention to offer a free breakfast to the judges prior to taking the field on Thursday morning. I think it is disappointing that only a few new members show up to offer their service even with this enticement. Myself, I have invited several members to particpate in judging with mixed to disappointing results. Thus it tends to be the same people with the clipboards on the parking lot on Thursday morning.

But to sum things up, National judging isn't a closed operation. Help is almost always needed and appreciated and it will be educational. And especially, don't b*tch about it if you don't have the  experience.

[Orphanauto]

I do agree it should be a team judging together, I hope it didn't sound as I was implying only 1 judge per model type, ect.. I have never been a judge, but because of my job, I have never been able to make a meet, ect.. This year I hope to learn in a local car show I am helping with. I really would LOVE to get involved in the KF club in many ways. I hope to write a few articles, make some meets and help with whatever needs done. I also would love to engourage ALL of you ( I know some of you already are ) to get involved. I know from other clubs, ect.. I have been with, when you get involved it becomes much more enjoyable. You really get to know other people, and thats what makes the club so great. This is our club, we need to all be part of it. I really am so appreciative of the people in here that make this club so great. I don't want to mention names, because I know I will leave people out. But to those of you who help out this club a big THANK-YOU.  I know it takes time, and work, so THANK-YOU SO MUCH.    There has been some great suggestions, keep them coming,

[Fid]

Everyone who knows me knows I'm not too keen on the whole judging process and I don't get too worked up about it but I will agree that it's an experience all critics should partake in.  I did it at Auburn in 2004 and found it very interesting. Of course, I was picked to judge the "Modified" class and there were many modified cars there and we were the last team to finish.  Because modified cars are judged by different standards, there were a lot of high scoring cars in that class. I don't have the answer as to how to best accomodate the modified class because I wouldn't want to discourage owners from bringing modified cars to meets. The issue I have with judging, and it's been discussed many times, is that there seems to be inconsistencies from judge to judge. Cars I saw get Silver one year, then after correcting much what caused deductions, they come back and get bronze the next time. My true interest in it is not about getting awards or trophies, it's about acheiving excellence in my restorations.  The reason I started this topic was  to hear people's thoughts on how non-tag matching cars might be judged.  It's certainly been an interesting discussion and probably will continue to be.  I know that new standards are in the works and I'm sure, even though that won't make the process perfect or foolproof, it will certainly improve it and bring it more credibility.  I have offered my input when and where it might be needed. I hope I'm taken up on my offer.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Questions, Ideas...great!

For some years now, I have championed the idea of a "book" on your car.  In this binder you put photocopies of parts book pages, info from service manuals and service bulletins, Parts & Accessories Bulletins and other FACTORY ISSUED documents that show things special about your car, including correctness of variations from the "typical" vehicle of your year/make/type/model.  This book is done to show the curious, potential buyers (if you ever decide to sell), judges, etc.  Assume you need to include everything rather than wonder what a judge or someone else already knows or not know.  This book is the basis for your "brag package" to show  people just how neat your car is.  If it is a factory document issued during the model year for your vehicle, that should be acceptible.

One of the problems with judging at a National Convention is that most people in the club cannot attend year after year, either due to cost of travel, schedules, health reasons, etc.  We have a lot of knowledgeable people in the organization and it is my hope that when the questions on format get resolved (I hope at this year's National Convention) we can tap these brains in creating the first pass drafts of the Restoration Standards and the Reference Sheets.  We get this all together, we can produce Judges Training Materials that can be used as needed each year.  All this stuff would also be available to car owners so they know what to expect on the judging field...at least that is the plan right now.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

One other thought...what should be used for judging sources...Here's the list we plan to use to cross-check & verifiy details in the materials to be prepared:

Service Bulletins                 Information from FACTORY shop manuals and Service Standards Books         P&A Bulletins
Parts Books & Supplements   Confidential Bulletins (K-F) and Trade Letters (Kaiser-Willys)                      Advance Information Bulletins
Memos and Letters dealing with running changes and items of interest (such as 1951 Kaiser Oil Filter revision by dealers)

You folk may be interested in knowing that KFOCI HANDBOOK VERSION 4.0 is based on all the above materials, and subject to new finds of documentation, should be reasonably accurate to draw off of.  Where the source of info is not factory supported from stuff in my files, the material in question is marked as such.

The point is that Judging Standards would be based on FACTORY DOCUMENTS; if an item is included by agreement (such as, because you cannot get the original item anymore and odds are it will not be reproduced) it will be identified accordingly.