NON MEMBER BAN FROM FORUM

[Terry T]

AND GO....

[joefrazer]

It seems the current slate of officers within the KFOCI have decided to restrict use of this forum to only those who hold at least an associate's membership within the club. A great many of those who stop by this forum do so only once or twice in a great while, and only to learn more about the cars and the people. Restricting access will ultimately force non-members to either join the club - if they haven't by now, they probably won't - or go to other venues like social media where several groups exist to aid those interested and at no cost to them.

It's too bad because many clubs are having trouble gaining and keeping members and it's no secret that the KFOCI is no exception. Removing one of the few avenues to attract them will do nothing to help bolster membership.

As a former officer of the club I am saddened to see this day come. I sincerely hope those making decisions today seriously rethink their latest.

[MarkH]

Other sites, gun & auto, have forums that are readable & searchable but you can't post questions, photos, or view photos unless you're a registered member. Some registrations are free, some have a small membership fee. Some are free registrations for posting questions & photos, some are paying members only post & view photos.

Maybe some middle ground can be agreed on rather than making the site go dark to the world outside of the 1118 paying club members?

[Gordie]

I am afraid that these messages will not be seen by most of our club officers as they do not read our forum.  When President Mike Neubecker announced that he was going to start a club forum on Facebook I asked him why as we already have a great forum that has evolved over twenty years to have every facet of club interests covered?,  Members like fid, joe frazer, historian@kfclub.com and others bend over backwards to research and answer questions for our members no matter what kind of K-F-W product question they have.  I never got an answer from Mike but the site is more of a social get together than for K-F-W members with questions.  Our club pays a lot of money every month to have all of our online needs handled and our Webmaster Chris Luecht has been working long and hard to develop a new program just for us and hopefully it will eliminate the high costs now necessary to run our club.  Certainly it will not cost the club anything to let car owners into our forum to see what we are all about and get a great idea of how fine our club and organization really is.  I hope that we don't shut that door!

[kfnut]

I have to agree with Joefrazer and Gordi . Blocking people out surly wouldn't help membership numbers . Only hurt . I know some new members came from the forum . I don't post much but have been checking the forum twice a day for years . I think it would hurt , not help .

[konrad]

Well, being a relative newbie here, perhaps I have no right to chime in, but being a bit of a gadfly...I'm gonna do it anyway. 

From my perspective, once I purchased a KF vehicle it was obvious to me that if I wanted the most immersive experience, then joining the club was the only choice.  I do understand there are others who do not see things that way.  However, as someone who has moderated a forum or three in my past I can tell you that limiting access to a forum does not raise its paying or contributing membership...if anything it drives said potential revenue down. 

After all, how would a potential new member know if joining the club for access to the forum would be beneficial to them if they can't test drive the forum (to use an analogy we can all grasp)?  There will always be people who join a forum just for access to the info and ability to get their questions answered...getting something for nothing is not an unknown human trait.  But to close the forum to anyone not a club member just assures anyone on the fence will likely just climb back down on their side.  To some it would appear churlish and money grubbing...to others it would simply be a matter of having no idea if joining would have real value to them.

I think some excellent points have been made for keeping the forum open, or at least having it open as read only unless a member.

But I think the best reason for keeping the forum open is the many fine folk here who will go out of their way to help.  I'm sure a few of you are sick to death of the many questions I've asked since my arrival...some may even wish that I'd just go away...not mad, just away.  But it's all of you who assure I will be a member of both the club and the forum, at least until such time as I am room temperature. 

Personally, I couldn't see being here without being a contributing member.  The number of people still interested in older cars like this dwindles by the day...younger generations, at least many of them, could care less about these older beasties, so I think it's incumbent on those of us who do still appreciate the history, grace and styling of these vehicles to do our part to keep the wheels rolling down the road, so to speak.

To conclude, I can only offer a simple adage which is and always will be true:  You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[MarkH]

I am afraid that these messages will not be seen by most of our club officers as they do not read our forum. 

I've seen similar comments in past discussions about the direction of the club & forum.

I'm puzzled why someone would volunteer to be an officer in any club, yet stay disengaged from it's internet presence, and then close it to the public unless they pay...........first.

Well, being a relative newbie here, perhaps I have no right to chime in, but being a bit of a gadfly...I'm gonna do it anyway.  ................................... However, as someone who has moderated a forum or three in my past I can tell you that limiting access to a forum does not raise its paying or contributing membership...if anything it drives said potential revenue down................................After all, how would a potential new member know if joining the club for access to the forum would be beneficial to them if they can't test drive the forum (to use an analogy we can all grasp)? ...................... But to close the forum to anyone not a club member just assures anyone on the fence will likely just climb back down on their side.  To some it would appear churlish and money grubbing...to others it would simply be a matter of having no idea if joining would have real value to them.

I think some excellent points have been made for keeping the forum open, or at least having it open as read only unless a member.

But I think the best reason for keeping the forum open is the many fine folk here who will go out of their way to help.

  The number of people still interested in older cars like this dwindles by the day...younger generations, at least many of them, could care less about these older beasties, so I think it's incumbent on those of us who do still appreciate the history, grace and styling of these vehicles to do our part to keep the wheels rolling down the road, so to speak.

To conclude, I can only offer a simple adage which is and always will be true:  You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

All good points

[rrdcorvair]

It's not really fair to club officers to paint with such a broad brush about reading/being active on the forum.  Not everyone has time to be active on a computer regularly.  Some officers are still working or busy with other projects.  Jack and Barbara are great with the forum, as are Gordie (past president), joefrazer (Jim Lape-past president), Mike McManama (membership secretary), and other past officers.  ( I do think the 'read for free' and active membership for posting is worth a try.)

[Carpenter]

I have been a member 2 times and have enjoyed the exchange of ideas and information.  Presently I do not hold membership because of severe financial conditions.

If you want to ruin the club start trimming participation by non members like me.

I'll be back as soon as I have the fee.

[WillysTom1]

  I am reminded of the old saying: "to cut off your nose to spite your face".  That is exactly what will happen if this ban goes into effect. All of these comments should be sent to Barbara to be included in the KFOCI newsletter, print deadline is the 15th of the month.

[MarkH]

It's not really fair to club officers to paint with such a broad brush about reading/being active on the forum.  Not everyone has time to be active on a computer regularly.  Some officers are still working or busy with other projects.  Jack and Barbara are great with the forum, as are Gordie (past president), joefrazer (Jim Lape-past president), Mike McManama (membership secretary), and other past officers.  ( I do think the 'read for free' and active membership for posting is worth a try.)

 If not the officers deciding to make the forum go dark to the outside world.......then who?

Being an officer in any organization is often a thankless job, and a labor of love. However, this subject has been discussed here ad nauseum before, with MANY ideas on improving the situation. You'd think the officers could at least come here the few minutes it would take to become informed of the general consensus of this one subject.   

[konrad]

( I do think the 'read for free' and active membership for posting is worth a try.)

I've thought a bit further on this model, and have found an objection, albeit conjectural only...

A member has an issue with a given repair, or tracing of a problem...something rare enough that none of the club members have a really good answer (and yes, I know this is probably unlikely, but not impossible) and the one guy who has run across it before and can give a definitive answer right off the bat...but can't post it because he's not a club member.  Does he suddenly join just to post that answer, or does he go his merry way thinking, "their loss".

I do know such a scenario is unlikely, but it does illustrate a potential pitfall of even a partial closing...

[MarkH]

( I do think the 'read for free' and active membership for posting is worth a try.)

I've thought a bit further on this model, and have found an objection, albeit conjectural only...

A member has an issue with a given repair, or tracing of a problem...something rare enough that none of the club members have a really good answer (and yes, I know this is probably unlikely, but not impossible) and the one guy who has run across it before and can give a definitive answer right off the bat...but can't post it because he's not a club member.  Does he suddenly join just to post that answer, or does he go his merry way thinking, "their loss".

I do know such a scenario is unlikely, but it does illustrate a potential pitfall of even a partial closing...

Funny you should bring up such a scenario, especially when I recently happened to be in that exact position.

I recently did a big metal purge (1400lbs) of my shop with a trip to recycle. I had a vintage bumper jack that someone thought might be for a 40's or 50's Chevy, and mentioned a particular forum. I registered there but kept having trouble posting even though I followed instructions. I asked for help 3 times, each time receiving clipped answers, all in caps. Someone above here mentioned "churlish"........that's exactly what I felt I was getting. Long & short of it, after a few days of questions & belated answers.........I discovered I needed to pay $25 to post the jack photo there.

I just wanted someone who needed the jack to get it for the shipping, rather than being recycled. Guess where that jack ended up?

[konrad]

So not as far fetched as I thought...and a damn shame on that jack Mark.  How many bits of our automotive history have been scrapped or discarded due to myopic vision or misguided choices?  Not yours, but those who make it harder and harder to preserve this past.  From your scrapped jack to that all too often example of a rare vehicle run through the crusher...the object of a club such as ours, or any club/forum/etc. dedicated to these magnificent examples of American ingenuity should be to preserve all they can of it...at all times.

Apologies...this is a sore spot for me.  History is many things...people, ideas, innovation, "inventions, artifacts and examples".  All need to be preserved, studied and understood.  To do less would be the height of churlishness.

Well, that seals it for me...my definitive position is that the forum should remain open...for all the reasons advocating such that have been posted.

Now how do we get a group of officers who have eschewed the forum for greener (pun intended) climes to pay attention to our concerns?  I rather like WillysTom's idea of having at least some of this collective reasoning in the next newsletter.

[Gordie]

Don't beat up our club officers who do a fine job for us and the club as I am sure that they were not aware of President Mike Neubeker's decision.  Usually these kind of decisions are made annually at the clubs National Meet which of course never happened this year.  I am sure that Mike is now aware of the feelings of many K-F-W owners.